WE: After school shooting in Connecticut, Piers Morgan blasts America’s ‘gun madness’

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Originally Posted by AsburySkinsFan

And it's official Godwin's Law strikes again.

We all get the myth you're selling...gun bans equal Nazi Germany.....except that they don't.

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6,000,000 Jews WERE killed by the Nazis. These 6,000,000 Jews either did not own a gun to begin with, or were disarmed. This is historical fact, and perfect evidence of the "worst case scenario." AND In a conversation about gun control, human rights , and mass murder it is a very legitimate topic to bring up. People are kidding themselves if they don't believe anything like that could not be possible here.

Take a look at what happens to many cities and geographical areas after a large enough natural disaster hits. Chaos, large scale burglary and robbery, property destruction, ineffective law enforcement. Every man for himself.

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Originally Posted by AsburySkinsFan

And it's official Godwin's Law strikes again.

We all get the myth you're selling...gun bans equal Nazi Germany.....except that they don't.

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I say this with a slight spirit of cynicism...

On that good Friday before Christmas all through the nation,
people were thinking of good will and salvation,
Well, all except a mouse called the National Rifle Association.

While on this day, Jesus may want your swords tucked away,
and suggest that this would be a time to fish and to pray,
Some worship instead revolvers and the AK,
a gun in every classroom shouts the good ole NRA

And is this the Yule message that Christ would send out,
is the timing a little suspiscious to me there is no doubt,
for while some preach love others just shout.

Is the Christmas spirit one of peace arm and arm.
Or that of a militia warning harm without charm.

And what is that hung in the stocking?
Is that a rifle that Santa's been rocking.
If he comes to your chimney the NRA will be cocking.
with a gun in the hand no door needs locking.

Warning this was stream of consciousness rhyming,
don't beat me up on the rhythm or timing,
but if you do hear the hour bell chiming...
or the sound of hooves on shingles clacking...
it's not reindeer, but boogeyman attacking...
Happy greetings from the NRA and a militia to all and your schools in lock down.

That was just awesome Burg. Great work as usual.

Yeah, nice work Burg. Very witty. If we put that much effort into finding solutions to our problems, maybe we could actually...you know....accomplish something?


(and I say that with a smile on my face brother. ;) )

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Originally Posted by FletchLives

Yet is ok to dismiss over 6,000,000 unarmed Jews rounded up and exterminated not so very long ago in Europe? .

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You have got to be kidding. Are you seriouly suggesting that firstly if individual Jews in Europe had been armed it would have stopped the Holocaust (you can look up the Warsaw Uprising to see what happened when Jews did arm themselves and resist) and then secondly drawing ANY comparison with Nazi Germany and modern USA.

This problem needs careful thought, long term planning and a willingness to seriously enage with the issues on all sides. Comments like the one above suggest this is some way away.

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Originally Posted by Painkiller

Why is it necessary for me to have working knowledge of every single facet of something? You seem hell bent on discrediting the idea, probably because it's not in line with your thinking. Ok, I'm sure we'd probably have to have insurance, but I do know that pensions and health benefits costs would not have to be provided. These positions could be developed to be part time positions, which do not require these benefits. To be honest, statistics, and probablities are not my area of expertise no, but I tell you what. I'm willing to work with you, who obviously know much more about that facet than I do. ;) I write the policy and procedures manual and the job description, and you deal with sorting out the financial side of things. :)

What makes more sense? Bringing all of our individual talents and skills to bear on a realistic and attainable goal, or chasing some fantasy where we wish all guns off to never never land.

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My post doesn't have anything to do with cost. I'll gladly accept your $75,000 per a school per a year and tell you still don't know if your plan will save lives.

Let me try again:

There is some probability that an elementary school kid will be killed in a manner that would have been prevented by having an armed guard (e.g. a shooter will come into the school and because of the actions of the armed guard fewer kids will be killed). I have no idea what that value is, but let's call it x.

There is then some probability that the gun of a guard will cause the death of an innocent kid (either the gun will be discharged accidently, the guard will intentionally/accidentally shot the person, or somebody else will gain control of the guards gun and shoot somebody). I have no idea what that value is, but let's call it y.

Now, I do think that some people have some idea of what y is (e.g. insurance companies). I seriously doubt that anybody can tell you what x is with any degree of certainty.

However, you've told me you are "absolutely" confident that your approach will save lives, which means your absolutely confident that y > x.

My question to you is what value are you using for x and how did you come up with that value.

You've accused me of being biased against your idea and trying to discredit. MadMike accused me of only having an emotional response to this idea.

I'll tell you that your (and MadMike's) plan is an emotional response (we need to do something to protect the kids w/o actually being sure it'll do any good) and based on the information that I know and that has been presented in this thread, there is no reason to believe that your approach will save lives.

More to the point, irregardless (whether I'm doing it because its not in line with my way of thinking or its completely illogical and an emotional over reaction), you should be able to support your argument if you are going to stand by it.

So what is your evidence that y > x? How do you know that y < x or x = y?

Or are you supporting a position based on your already present biases w/o knowing if it'll really help?

Here ya go, Burg---Merry Christmas :pfft:

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s..._in_combat.jpg

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Originally Posted by Painkiller

Take a look at what happens to many cities and geographical areas after a large enough natural disaster hits. Chaos, large scale burglary and robbery, property destruction, ineffective law enforcement. Every man for himself.

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Lets set aside the example of the Holocaust - its a frankly ridiculous parallel to try to make.

Can you find any example of 'large scale burglary, property destruction, ineffective law enforcement' in say the last 50 years in a Western Democracy in these circumstances? There have been a few earthquakes and other natural disasters in Europe (where there is minimal gun ownership) the last I can think of being in Italy. Lots of property damage, medical and emergency services stretched to breaking point - but no break down I law and order or large scale looting.

The idea that you need an armed population in the US to mitigate against a state of anarchy locally or nationally as a justification for the scale of gun ownership in the US or to legitimize the continued relevance of the second amendment is, to me, a really weak argument.

Just to let you guys know, I've been listening to talk radio on and off with the aim of keeping up to date with views of the alternative universe. The angle "dictators disarm people before doing bad things" is very common. When people stop by and drop a line about that, you can safely conclude that their programming comes from there.

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Originally Posted by MartinC

Lets set aside the example of the Holocaust - its a frankly ridiculous parallel to try to make.

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Actually, it's not, but whatever. I said my bit.

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Originally Posted by MartinC

Can you find any example of 'large scale burglary, property destruction, ineffective law enforcement' in say the last 50 years in a Western Democracy in these circumstances?

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New Orleans after Katrina

Btw whenever you are tempted to mention bad things that happen when good people do not have guns, please also mention bad things that happen when bad people get guns (Somalia, Africa, etc)

This is one of the real reasons why we won't get real gun control legislation in this country. I present you Exhibit A:

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http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/C...a.grid-6x2.jpg

On NBC’s Meet the Press, National Rifle Association chief Wayne LaPierre on Sunday refused to support new gun control legislation and maintained his support for putting armed guards and police in schools in response to the Dec. 14 school shootings in Newtown, Con“If it’s crazy to call for putting police in and securing our schools to protect our children, then call me crazy,” LaPierre told NBC’s David Gregory.

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Nevermind that there is a gun control issue in this country, let's sell more guns to the masses and more killings will happen.

the holocaust comparison IS ridiculous, because the Nazis disarmed the public with the idea in mind to do away with the Jews, at very earliest, to use them as slave labor and to militarize the entire populace and start a war.

Now if any of those conditions exist here, then you'd have something with the holocaust comparison.
Nevermind the fact that disarming our population is impossible.

frankly, the constant comparisons and analogies that this debate spawns are either insults to our overall intelligence in that we would rather do that then actually look at our problem and try to solve it, or they show our intelligence is way lower than I expect..


~Bang

Painkiller, you only scratched the surface...and thanks for making some of us drill down further. On Huffpost there's a "to live and die in America". I couldn't believe my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Bang

frankly, the constant comparisons and analogies that this debate spawns are either insults to our overall intelligence in that we would rather do that then actually look at our problem and try to solve it, or they show our intelligence is way lower than I expect..


~Bang

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... or it points to a genuine and sincere level of paranoia which indicats the kind of mental instability that would make gun ownership a threat to themselves and others!

:halo: