You mean 8,583 homicides by firearm? Including justifiable homicide by peope and police? At least according to FBI stats from 2011, the last available official numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsburySkinsFan
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You mean 8,583 homicides by firearm? Including justifiable homicide by peope and police? At least according to FBI stats from 2011, the last available official numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsburySkinsFan
Source?Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeman38
My numbers we obvious estimates, but one's based off actual data that showed 8,000+ handgun homicides and 3,000+ other gun related homicides. I posted it in another thread and have been working off those estimates. BTW, you still ignored the point in order to quibble over a number.
Yes, he did answer your question.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsburySkinsFan
If you look very closely, in the middle of his rant, you will see the word "Yes".
---------- Post added January-18th-2013 at 01:16 PM ----------
Pay no attention to the documented, 100% factual examples, which are being discussed. If I simply claim that they don;t exist, then they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeman38
1) Funny, I haven't seen him not-so-subtly imply that. Could you point it out?Quote:
And don't think no one notices that your claim not-so-subtlely implies that the NRA controls the Senate.
2) And let me guess. You're going to claim that the NRA has had zero effect in the fact that the NRA successfully changed federal law to require confirmation of the head of the ATF, and that, since that law was changed, the Senate has not permitted a single nominee to even be voted on?
Or is it possible that the truth is somewhere in between? That the NRA, while it does not have a magic internet connection which activates the implanted mind control chips which give them full, complete, control of 100% of the actions of 100% of the members of both houses of Congress, does have an awful lot of influence on Capital Hill, (that they are, in fact, widely recognized, along with the AARP, as either the most powerful or the second most powerful lobbying organization in Washington), and that yes, they are a big part of the reason why that language was inserted, and why every nomination since then has been successfully filibustered?
I posted my source in this thread: The FBI crime statistics for the last reported year - 2011 http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...e-data-table-8Quote:
Originally Posted by AsburySkinsFan
---------- Post added January-18th-2013 at 02:39 PM ----------
Way to take a single word out of context Larry, you are getting very good at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
Wanna play that game? Provide documented proof that the NRA did anything directly. Or did they, just leke every other lobby in Washington, exert pressure and influence on the government to implement lobby-friendly legislation?Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
Hmmm, where could I possibly find that ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
Emphasis mine. The NRA has no power to do any of those things. All they can do is exert influence on ELECTED OFFICIALS. Quit blaming lobbies for ****ty politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by ASF
The NRA has no power to change federal law. POLITICIANS change laws. Direct your ire at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
The NRA is a lobby. They make money from individuals, and use that money to lobby. Imagine that. They exert influence on lawmakers. Lawmakers can, at anytime, close the door and tell the NRA to pound sand. And some have. See the gun control measures in Massachusetts. The left complains about the right creating booggiemen that pull the puppet stings of liberal politicians. Pot, meet kettle. The NRA is the lefts boogieman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
Wow....just wow.....now the NRA (the nation's biggest and most influential lobby) is powerless. I have heard it all.
We are honestly supposed to believe that lie?
Watch what happens when a politician in a Red state doesn't tow the NRA line.....no power.......that is a dandy of a lie.
Huge.....massive......colossal.....enormous.....mo nolithic......
[QUOTE=Popeman38;9404046]The NRA has no power to do any of those things. All they can do is exert influence on ELECTED OFFICIALS. Quit blaming lobbies for ****ty politicians.
Actually, the best strategy (and the NRA gets this) is to direct lobbying at politicians. Direct ire towards your opponent's lobbyists.Quote:
The NRA has no power to change federal law. POLITICIANS change laws. Direct your ire at them.
The NRA has done a great job of directing its ire towards gun control supporters. But it directs its lobbying to politicians. The best hope for gun control supporters is to direct their ire towards the NRA, making the NRA look bad in the public eye, and making it unpalatable for politicians to be seen as too close to the NRA.
But directing ire towards politicians is counterproductive unless you think you can defeat them in an upcoming election. Otherwise you might need their vote.
Demonize your opponents. Lobby the politicians. That is how a bill becomes a law.
I quoted the only part of your post, that actually responded to his question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeman38
Every single thing that he asked you, if it was true, you agreed, in your post, was true. Correct?
When the question is "Is X true",
And the answer is "yes, but"
Then "yes" is the answer.
Isn't it?
That is doing something directly.Quote:
Wanna play that game? Provide documented proof that the NRA did anything directly. Or did they, just leke every other lobby in Washington, exert pressure and influence on the government to implement lobby-friendly legislation?
No one is saying that the head of the NRA personally walked onto the floor of congress and single-handedly cast 300 votes in favor of any of these measures.
So you pointing out that the NRA did not cast a vote is really devastating to the argument that nobody is making.
And you have not in any way shown the claim that you made.Quote:
Hmmm, where could I possibly find that ? Emphasis mine.
He did not say "the NRA, who was in charge of the Senate". He said "The NRA fought against".
And they did.
In fact, I haven't tried to go find it, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that the NRA claims credit for accomplishing those goals. Or at the very least, for exerting influence in those directions.
They're in the business of pushing Washington to vote the way they want. It's their sole reason for existence. (Well, the lobbying part of their organization. The NRA has lots of other parts, over and above lobbying.)
Influence is power.Quote:
The NRA has no power to do any of those things. All they can do is exert influence on ELECTED OFFICIALS. Quit blaming lobbies for ****ty politicians.
The NRA has no power to change federal law. POLITICIANS change laws. Direct your ire at them.
The NRA is a lobby. They make money from individuals, and use that money to lobby. Imagine that. They exert influence on lawmakers. Lawmakers can, at anytime, close the door and tell the NRA to pound sand. And some have. See the gun control measures in Massachusetts. The left complains about the right creating booggiemen that pull the puppet stings of liberal politicians. Pot, meet kettle. The NRA is the lefts boogieman.
The word "boogyman" implies that the NRA does not exist. They absolutely do. They are widely recognized as one of the two most powerful lobbying groups in Washington. (With the AARP).
(And, FWIW, for pretty much the same reason. Other lobbying organizations have the power to give politicians money. But the NRA and the AARP have the power, through their information programs, to deliver or withhold votes.)Sorry, the only boogyman here is your person who is claiming that the NRA casts votes in Congress.
(IMO, that's one of the advantages that a lobbying group has, when they're lobbying on behalf of individuals, as opposed to corporations. But that's another topic.)
I keep watching "Schoolhouse Rock" and it is missing this whole aspect of how a bill becomes a law.Quote:
Originally Posted by DjTj
http://youtu.be/tyeJ55o3El0
You and Larry both need to stop the bull**** game. You stated the NRA "created legislation" when the NRA does not have the power to create legislation. You know this. Yet you post the "screw the NRA" quote in multiple threads. We get it. You don't like the NRA. You think they bully the government on behalf of gun rights. When someone else speaks badly of unions doing the same thing for workers rights, it is "great that someone sticks up for the Constitution".Quote:
Originally Posted by AsburySkinsFan
And just as an FYI, Larry, gun control is not a red vs blue debate. It is more of a rural vs urban debate. Harry Reid doesn't support what the President and Vice President are pushing. Why? Because Nevada has quite a few gun owners that ar Dems.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeman38
Could you point me to the law (a law of Man, or of Nature) which conclusively states that it is impossible for the NRA to request that a Congressman introduce this piece of legislation that the NRA created?
Thanks.
The heck they can't, they write the law and their paid for Congressmen introduce it as law, that's what "the NRA has approved the language" means!Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeman38
So you agree that the NRA can not create legislation. All they can do is put words on paper. CONGRESS, the SENATE, and the PRESIDENT create and pass legislation. The NRA is a lobby. Quit affording them power to bypass the entire legislative process.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
So you agree you're a liar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeman38
Now that we've got that out of the way, could you answer the question that I asked?
Thanks again.
Ummm if the NRA puts the words on paper then they created it, the Congress just introduces and passes what the NRA created.Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeman38
Hey look! Larry called someone a liar again. I am shocked. Your act gets old Larry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
Once again, the NRA can put words on paper. The NRA can hand paper to Congressman. NRA can explain why they want said Congressman to submit paper as lesislation. Congressman, AND CONGRESSMAN ALONE, has to decide whether to submit paper or not. If Congressman does, HE created legislation. Legislation is then debated on the floor of the House of Representatives, where other Congressmen add riders and amendments to "help" their constituents. Legislation is then voted on by the House of Representatives. If the House of Representatives passes legislation, legislation is then passed to the Senate. The Senate then debates the merits of the legislation. Senate votes on legislation. If Senate passes legislation, without changing it, legislation goes to the President's desk for signature or veto. If the President signs the legislation, it has now become law. So yeah, I am pretty confident that the NRA has no power to create legislation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry
And don't change your question again to claim I didn't answer it. I never stated the NRA can't request a memebr of Congress to submit wording. And you know that.:)