The Figure Four - ALL Things ECW-WWF-TNA-ROH

[Fuzzy Dunlop]

I with the WWE would stop putting older guys in the ring for spots. Of course this could have happened anywhere but he just was running around an hour earlier, right? Scares me.

Get well soon, King.

Lawler still wrestles on the independent circuit when he isnt doing Raw. He was wrestling in Aruba this past weekend.

[Mr. Sinister]

Hart being inferior to Cena is laughable.

Well in terms of strictly being an entertainer, I think he is, but strictly as a wrestler, they aren't even close. They're not even in the same galaxy. And it's probably easy for him to say that about them now considering that Hart is old and broken down, and suffered a stroke awhile back, but in his prime, he was amazing.

[Forehead]

Brett Hart is inferior to John Cena. I have always despised him, since I was a kid. I was happy when he got screwed and they handed the belt to Michaels. **** him. Actually **** him and Rey Mysterio Jr, never liked him at all either, but at least he was a better in ring performer.

How old are you, out of curiosity? Did you watch in his prime late 80's through mid 90's Bret Hart? He was an incredible worker. Cena doesn't even hold a candle.

[Mr. Sinister]

How old are you, out of curiosity? Did you watch in his prime late 80's through mid 90's Bret Hart? He was an incredible worker. Cena doesn't even hold a candle.

The only thing people could ever knock Hart for, would be his mic skills. It would stand out today more than it did back then, thanks to the "Entertainment" that McMahon seems to covet more than actual ability. Back then though, it was fine. He had the look, and he had the skill. He just couldn't talk 10-15 minutes in front of a crowd with a mic in his hand.

And it's easy to be the" Big Dog" when you don't have any real competition. He and Shawn Michaels are one of the biggest reasons why the WWE is even still around today. They were getting killed in the ratings department, and they somehow kept the WWE afloat, before the beginning of the "Attitude Era." Cena is so stale and predictable that it truly is an embarrasment. And to top it all off, the dude flat out sucks in the ring. Bret Hart is a mat/technical wrestling Legend.

[Forehead]

He and Shawn Michaels are one of the biggest reasons why the WWE is even still around today. They were getting killed in the ratings department, and they somehow kept the WWE afloat, before the beginning of the "Attitude Era." Cena is so stale and predictable that it truly is an embarrasment. And to top it all off, the dude flat out sucks in the ring. Bret Hart is a mat/technical wrestling Legend.

You know, I had to do this because I can't believe anyone would respect Cena more than Bret Hart. I'm focusing on a specific timeline here based on what Mr. Sinister just said. The Monday night wars started in September 1995, and the Montreal Screwjob was in late 1997. 1998 was when the WWF Attitude era started, and they started to take back their share from WCW. So you're talking a 2+ year period (late 1995 - late 1997) where WWF is fighting tooth and nail with WCW to stay relevent. This is every PPV in that timeframe:

Sept 1995: In Your House 3; Bret Hart beats someone named Jean-Pierre Lafitte
Oct 1995: In Your House 4; Hart not involved in a televised match
Nov 1995: Survivor Series; Hart wins the WWF title from Diesel (Main Event)
Dec 1995: In Your House 5; Hart defeats British Bulldog to retain championship (Main Event)
Jan 1996: Royal Rumble; Hart loses to Undertaker by DQ, retains title (Main Event)
Feb 1996: In Your House 6; Hart defeats Diesel in steel cage match, retains title (Main Event)
Mar 1996: Wrestlemania; Hart loses title to Shawn Michaels in 1 hour Ironman match (Main Event) *Note, this was motnhs after Michaels got beaten up outside a bar, and Hart assisting Michaels in his eventual ascension to the top of the WWF

*From April through October, Hart went on hiatus as he considered employment with WWF and WCW. Ultimately, he returned to WWF.

Nov 1996: Survivor Series; Hart defeats Stone Cold Steve Austin (post 3:16) in a #1 contender match
Dec 1996: In Your House 12; Hart loses to Sycho Sid (Main Event title match)
Jan 1997: Royal Rumble; Hart involved in Royal Rumble, last one eliminated, Stone Cold Steve Austin wins
Feb 1997: In Your House 13; Hart wins a four way elimination match, against Stone Cold Steve Austin, Vader, Undertaker, regains title (Main Event)*
*Note, Hart lost the title to Sycho Sid the next night on RAW, Steve Austin interference
Mar 1997: Wrestlemania; Hart defeats Stone Cold Steve Austin in a submission match (this was the Austin "face of blood, passed out, didn't submit" match
Apr 1997: In Your House 14; Hart loses to Stone Cold Steve Austin by DQ, Main Event

*Hart not involved in next two PPV's in wrestling capacity

July 1997: In Your House 16; Hart Foundation defeats Stone Cold Steve Austin, Ken Shamrock, Goldust, Legion of Doom in 10 Man Tag Match (Main Event)
Aug 1997: Summerslam; Hart defeats the Undertaker for the WWF title, Main Event
Sept 1997: Ground Zero; Hart defeats someone named The Patriot, retains title
Sept 1997: One Night Only; Hart defeats Undertaker by DQ, retains title
Oct 1997: Badd Blood; Hart and British Bulldog defeat Vader and The Patriot in a Flag Match
Nov 1997: Summerslam; Montreal screwjob, Hart loses title to Shawn Michaels (Main Event)

By my count, Hart participated in 18 of the approximate 26 PPV's during this timeframe. He was in the main event 11 times, which is incredible when you consider the other talent on the roster. He held the title three times. Not only that, he MADE two of his biggest competitors at the time. Remember, Shawn Michaels first won the big title during that whole Jose Lothario, boyhood dream storyline. Who else but Bret Hart carries that IronMan match with Shawn Michaels and makes it interesting? One straight hour of wrestling and the fans staying interested. The answer is no one. Certainly not John Cena. Steve Austin's character was made over two major events...the Austin 3:16 line, and the submission match with the bloody face where he passed out rather than submitting. Who was involved...Bret Hart.

Hart's hiatus was a result of Vince McMahon being strapped for cash, not able to meet all his financial obligations, and Hart considering a jump to WCW. Ultimately he stayed, and helped give rise to Shawn Michaels and Stone Cold, both of whom helped take WWF into the attitude era. Without Bret Hart, there might not be a John Cena. If you go watch his old matches, the guy was nearly technically perfect, was able to tell a story with his body language, and was able to keep the fans interested. His mic skills were passable at the time, enough that they let him speak. Back then, many wrestlers had managers do the talking for them because they were atrocious on the mic. Bret Hart was good enough. And let's not forget, I'm only focusing on the early Monday Night Wars period, Hart was great for many years prior to 1995, he had held tag titles, the Intercontinental belt, and had already been WWF champ in feuds with Razor Ramon, Yokozuna, Lex Luger, and Ric Flair.

Comparing Cena to him is ridiculous. Hart was a direct reason WWF was saved, possibly the biggest one.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

How old are you, out of curiosity? Did you watch in his prime late 80's through mid 90's Bret Hart? He was an incredible worker. Cena doesn't even hold a candle.

Im 36. Hart was a great worker, but I never liked him. Mic skills matter and he couldn't cut a promo if his life depended on it. Cena is not the worker Hart was, I'll agree to that. Cena is good on the mic and cuts better promos. People say Cena is boring, predictible in the ring........but all of them are. Im personally tired of John Cena, I still laugh at some of the jokes he cuts, but Im bored of him. Until someone can create a new brand, pay lots of money and steal some/develop talent and compete head to head with the WWE, we are going to get the same ole same ole


I have never liked Bret Hart, never will lol. I was drunk when I said he was inferrior to Cena and spatted off simply because I can't stand him. Plus, Im getting tired of them bringing in all these retired wrestlers in almost every show. Bret Hart was an incredible wrestler and worker. My all time favorite is Diesel, followed by the Rock (started pulling for him when he was with the Nation and hated by fans).

[Forehead]

I will agree with you about bringing back the old wrestlers. I don't mind when they do an occasional gimmick Battle Royal where they bring back 20 older guys and let someone like the Iron Sheik win, but on a regular basis, no way.

I don't watch much wrestling anymore, but they do need to start giving more attention to up and comers. I get most of my info reading the Masked Man stuff on Grantland, it sounds like people like Daniel Bryan and Dolph Ziggler need to be pushed to the next level, which will never happen as long as they bring back old guys or Triple H decides he still needs to be involved.

[Mr. Sinister]

You know, I had to do this because I can't believe anyone would respect Cena more than Bret Hart. I'm focusing on a specific timeline here based on what Mr. Sinister just said. The Monday night wars started in September 1995, and the Montreal Screwjob was in late 1997. 1998 was when the WWF Attitude era started, and they started to take back their share from WCW. So you're talking a 2+ year period (late 1995 - late 1997) where WWF is fighting tooth and nail with WCW to stay relevent. This is every PPV in that timeframe:
.

Before Megavideo was shut down, I went back and rewatched pretty much all of the WWF programming (meaning Raw/Smackdown, and the PPV's) from '96-2004. I remember all of those matches. It was bad... really bad. The tag team division was awful. They were still featuring guys like Duke "The Dumpster", some plumber dude, the Hillbilly Godwynns, and had Barry Windham in some weird "Stalker" gimmick where he wore some cheap ass WWF shirt, and camo pants to the ring, as well as old and broken down Jake The Snake. As you mentioned, dude was feuding with the freaking Patriot. Nuff said.

That's why it kinda isn't true when people say that HBK and Hart "Weren't draws." They were literally the only thing to look forward to, unless you wanted to see Vader, Sid, or The Undertaker in a squash match, or "Ringmaster" Steve Austin wrestle Savio Vega in a Strap Match in the dark (due to a power outage). The reason they didn't get huge numbers was because the rest of the roster sucked. As much as people loved the early '00s when you had guys like The Rock, Stone Cold, Triple H, Angle, Jericho, etc, that roster was loaded from top to bottom. Back then, it was Hart and HBK (along with a pretty stale Undertaker) and that was it. And when Hart went on hiatus, HBK damn near killed himself, giving it everything he had on every show, because the future of the company depended on it. He had one of the greatest (and forgotten) matches that I've ever seen with Mick Foley at "Mind Games."

And I honestly think the"foundaton" of the Attitude Era began in '96, with Hart vs Stone Cold. I don't know if you remember that crazy ass segment where Austin went to attack Brian Pillman, and Pillman pulled a gun on him. But I think it began with that particular feud (as well as Mankind's brutal feuds with the Undertaker, which pretty much revived Takers career, along with Goldusts arrival), then DX, The Nation, The New Age Outlaws, the birth of The Rock, all sprang form that. It was in early '97 when they actually started featuring those "Attitude" commercials, and switched from Monday Night Raw to Raw Is War, and Hart (and the Hart Foundation) were pretty much front and center.

And it actually shocked me when I went back and watched, but the Patriot was actually the first person to use Kurt Angles entrance music...before Kurt Angle. That dude was painful to watch.

[SonOfWashington]

http://www.tout.com/m/rwwluj

I hope that when he returns they have his entrance live on TV instead of before the sow starts. The pop will be incredible.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

http://www.tout.com/m/rwwluj

I hope that when he returns they have his entrance live on TV instead of before the sow starts. The pop will be incredible.

Amen to that. Long live the King!!!!

[MLSKINS]

Until someone can create a new brand, pay lots of money and steal some/develop talent and compete head to head with the WWE, we are going to get the same ole same ole

Man this is so true. TNA has tried, but they just don't have the resources that the WWE have. Like if they can pull somebody like Punk, Bryan, Kingston, and Dean Ambrose from the WWE. Bring up some people from the minors like Chuck Taylor, Sami Callihan and add that to people like Roode, Storm, Samoa Joe, and Aries. Joint would be epic.

But until somebody decides to go toe-toe with that giant, I will just have to dream.

[KDawg]

Anyone else see Ryback getting a match with Punk only to have Lesnar step in and start a feud with Ryback? (Which Ryback will win, simply to continue his push).

[praise_gibbs]

[spjunkies]

This little stunt could very well get Punk's ass fired.

[DM72]

This little stunt could very well get Punk's ass fired.

http://i.imgur.com/HwWiK.gif

What the.....

But it won't get him fired. They would NEVER risk him going to TNA.