Anything MMA, except thumb wrestling

[Skin'Em84]

toney's was one of my favorite boxers during his prime

dude could do some amazing things in the ring, particularly on defense. he does the shoulder roll defense as well as anyone not named Mayweather, but that will not translate to the cage in any fashion.

if couture is smart, this fight is easy.:

All points are true, but Toney is dangerous enough with his hands that all he needs is a couple good hits to take this fight. This fight, IMO, has equal opportunity to be horrible or amazing in terms of a show.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

All points are true, but Toney is dangerous enough with his hands that all he needs is a couple good hits to take this fight.

[herrmag]

All points are true, but Toney is dangerous enough with his hands that all he needs is a couple good hits to take this fight. This fight, IMO, has equal opportunity to be horrible or amazing in terms of a show.

I agree. Curious if Couture will go to old faithful and try to dirty box Toney. Obviously the logical thing would be to take Toney down immediately. I'm not that familiar with Toney (never been a huge boxing fan), so I'm curious what kind of power he has in close quarters. I assume that since he was an elite boxer, he's got enough to scare the hair back onto Randy's head, even with his back against the cage.

[Chachie]

I agree. Curious if Couture will go to old faithful and try to dirty box Toney. Obviously the logical thing would be to take Toney down immediately. I'm not that familiar with Toney (never been a huge boxing fan), so I'm curious what kind of power he has in close quarters. I assume that since he was an elite boxer, he's got enough to scare the hair back onto Randy's head, even with his back against the cage.

If Randy Couture spends a second on his feet beyond walking to the middle of the cage when the fight starts he will lose. He's got a pretty nice chin for an old guy despite the Liddell losses. Big Nog couldn't knock him out and they traded punches like crazy. The problem is that he's fighting a guy in James Toney who became a champion- a great boxer, which is a pretty elite club. Toney's way past his prime but he still doesn't get KOed in boxing matches and he still frustrates the heck out of good boxers who can't seem to hurt him. Randy has zero chance on his feet. He won't hit Toney with anything flush or clean. Toney has great upstairs/downstairs shots and will hit Randy many times before Couture can even react to the first one.

Having said all that I was never a big Toney fan until late in his career and then it was only because he was still relevant after all those years. The respect came slowly for me because he didn't give it all every time out. So being a huge Couture fan I hope Randy takes care of biz and chokes this old dog out. I just feel like he'd better shoot in first chance he gets and he better not get caught on the way in. Wrestling from start to quick finish.

[ACW]

Okay, MAJOR to Brock, but why didn't the ref stop the fight? From the highlights, didn't seem like Brock was doing much.

And that Harris KO: Well, Ron Simmons says it best
[youtube]B-6CmCaDvkA[/youtube]

[lovetoaster]

Okay, MAJOR to Brock, but why didn't the ref stop the fight? From the highlights, didn't seem like Brock was doing much.

He was defending himself, he was still blocking a lot of strikes and kicking Carwin back when he could. I could have seen it getting stopped, but I am happy Rosenthal let it go. Some people are saying that if it were a fight in the undercard, it would have been stopped, but I don't know. He was definitely hurt, but he was still working to defend himself.

[Destino]

If Randy Couture spends a second on his feet beyond walking to the middle of the cage when the fight starts he will lose.

I'm not so sure. Toney is 41 and from what I've seen not exactly in the best shape of his life.

The old James Toney:


The current James Toney:


He may not have the lungs, speed, or power to deal with Randy. You know Randy is going to push him up against the fence and test that cardio by leaning on him.

[ACW]

He was defending himself, he was still blocking a lot of strikes and kicking Carwin back when he could. I could have seen it getting stopped, but I am happy Rosenthal let it go. Some people are saying that if it were a fight in the undercard, it would have been stopped, but I don't know. He was definitely hurt, but he was still working to defend himself.

I don't know; it seems like if that happened in boxing it very well could've been stopped (well, the guy against the ropes, not on the ground obviously ).

[Destino]

I don't know; it seems like if that happened in boxing it very well could've been stopped (well, the guy against the ropes, not on the ground obviously ).

Which would be a mistake in either sport. You'll note that Brock was fine, he even stood up and ended the round strongly. The fight should be stopped because a fighter is hurt, unable to defend himself, or after they give up... not because one guy is especially busy.

[lovetoaster]

Which would be a mistake in either sport. You'll note that Brock was fine, he even stood up and ended the round strongly. The fight should be stopped because a fighter is hurt, unable to defend himself, or after they give up... not because one guy is especially busy.

Plus after a while, the strikes from Carwin did not have much on them. The elbows did not look pleasant when they got through, but his punches definitely had lost a lot of steam.

[herrmag]

I'm not so sure. Toney is 41 and from what I've seen not exactly in the best shape of his life.

He may not have the lungs, speed, or power to deal with Randy. You know Randy is going to push him up against the fence and test that cardio by leaning on him.

That's my feeling on the subject, but I don't know **** about Toney. Couture loves the dirty boxing, and clinching against the cage. But if Toney is known (or is still capable) of throwing KO power from in close (which I'm sure Randy and Co. have studied thoroughly), then Randy can't risk leaning up against him for fear of a one-shot finish.

[NoCalMike]

Something a lot of casual fans of MMA don't seem to realize and I guess it has become a big secret in the last five years is that most MMA fighters don't have very good chins, which is why it is MMA in the first place and not K1.

Therein lies the dilema because UFC seems to make it pretty known their feelings on the sport and what direction they want it to go in order to yield the biggest profit. Most of their highlights and marketing is geared towards the flash knockouts and ground & pound finishes, which then yields arenas full of drunk fans looking for a :30 second KO, or they start booing the fight.

Also, like I have said in previous posts, "heavy hands/power" gets mistaken for "technical striking" a lot of the time. You can usually tell the difference between someone who merely has a lot of power when they connect(Carwin, Wanderlai Silva, Dan Henderson), and someone who actually knows the standup game and comes from a boxing base(throwing jabs, combinations, using head movement, circling away from opponents power hand etc etc etc), guys like BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Rashad Evans.

A lot of MMA fighters do bring in boxing coaches, but you are expecting a boxing coach to teach them the fundamentals in six months, when these are the same fundamentals they have been repeating over and over again for World Class boxers for their entire careers.

We can say what a great Dirty boxer Randy Couture is but James Toney is the real deal when it comes to boxing. He was one of the best in the world in his day, and now you are putting the MMA gloves on a boxer. Now of course, it remains to be seen if Toney is in this for the right reasons and even cares, or if he is just trying to stay relevent when he is obviously past his prime. However Couture is no spring chicken either, I am sure his reaction time is slower with every fight.

Couture better just play it safe and go for the take down as soon as it presents itself. We don't need another Sylvia vs. Ray Mercer debacle(yes I know circumstances were different).

[ACW]

Oh, one more reason why the BMI is
Brock Lesnae would be classified as obese.

[#98QBKiller]

I don't know; it seems like if that happened in boxing it very well could've been stopped (well, the guy against the ropes, not on the ground obviously ).

At the time I wouldn't have argued against a stoppage but seeing as how Brock appeared to have regained his wits by the end of the round, I think it was the right call to let it go. Carwin's punches were hitting the arms and gloves of Lesnar toward the end of the round and I think it gave him time to recover. The ref was giving Brock the benefit of the doubt because it was a title fight and because he's a name in the sport, which isn't uncommon.

I bet if Carwin could go back, he'd make the ref stand Brock up after he hurt him initially and get into another exchange with him while he was still a little dazed instead of punching all of his cardio out on the ground and letting Brock recover.

Couture better just play it safe and go for the take down as soon as it presents itself. We don't need another Sylvia vs. Ray Mercer debacle(yes I know circumstances were different).

I don't think Randy is dumb enough to test the waters with Toney standing. I seriously think he comes out with his hands up high and clinches immediately, then probably backs off and shoots on him. This fight is easy for Randy if he wants it to be. Any kind of exchange is just putting the fight into Toney's hands.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

If Randy Couture spends a second on his feet beyond walking to the middle of the cage when the fight starts he will lose.

Something a lot of casual fans of MMA don't seem to realize and I guess it has become a big secret in the last five years is that most MMA fighters don't have very good chins, which is why it is MMA in the first place and not K1.

Therein lies the dilema because UFC seems to make it pretty known their feelings on the sport and what direction they want it to go in order to yield the biggest profit. Most of their highlights and marketing is geared towards the flash knockouts and ground & pound finishes, which then yields arenas full of drunk fans looking for a :30 second KO, or they start booing the fight.

Also, like I have said in previous posts, "heavy hands/power" gets mistaken for "technical striking" a lot of the time. You can usually tell the difference between someone who merely has a lot of power when they connect(Carwin, Wanderlai Silva, Dan Henderson), and someone who actually knows the standup game and comes from a boxing base(throwing jabs, combinations, using head movement, circling away from opponents power hand etc etc etc), guys like BJ Penn, Anderson Silva, Rashad Evans.

A lot of MMA fighters do bring in boxing coaches, but you are expecting a boxing coach to teach them the fundamentals in six months, when these are the same fundamentals they have been repeating over and over again for World Class boxers for their entire careers.

We can say what a great Dirty boxer Randy Couture is but James Toney is the real deal when it comes to boxing. He was one of the best in the world in his day, and now you are putting the MMA gloves on a boxer. Now of course, it remains to be seen if Toney is in this for the right reasons and even cares, or if he is just trying to stay relevent when he is obviously past his prime. However Couture is no spring chicken either, I am sure his reaction time is slower with every fight.

Couture better just play it safe and go for the take down as soon as it presents itself. We don't need another Sylvia vs. Ray Mercer debacle(yes I know circumstances were different).

I disagree with both of you. It really gets on my nerves when people dismiss MMA fighters' striking abilities because it doesn't look like picture-perfect boxing technique.

THAT'S THE ENTIRE POINT. You don't WANT to have picture-perfect boxing technique, you don't even want to mess with picture-perfect kickboxing technique these days. Anderson Silva keeps a wide, squatted stance that would make people ask WTF he's doing if it were a kickboxing bout. That's because he's prepared for the takedown.

MMA totally changes the footwork, the "beautiful" defense you'll see in boxing, the sweet extended jabs you'll see. Coming in with a technique that has been refined over generations without considering anything but punching is just a huge roll of the dice in every MMA bout you go in to.

This is why you don't see very much "technical boxing" in MMA, it's not because these guys don't put their work in. These guys are bad asses!! If they wanted to become technical boxers, I'm sure most of them could! But they have to consider so many things other than just fists. It changes the stance, the defense, the footwork, everything.

And, NoCalMike, who are these guys you mentioned that have a boxing base? BJ Penn? He's got great standup, but seriously, who wants to go to the ground with that guy? He's absolutely has a jiu jitsu base and is incredibly well rounded. Rampage? He's a wrestler who got KO'd twice by a guy in Wand who "merely has punching power" when they were both hitting their primes. He's such a good boxer that he barely beat Keith Jardine. Rashad Evans? A boxer? First of all, any amount of research will reveal that he comes from a wrestling background. Second, the dude has a ridiculously low stance and he's a leaping striker that happens to be quick and black. Doesn't make him a boxer.

Dirty boxing is so dismissed in this conversation that it's baffling. Think about what that means. Imagine someone clinching up with James Toney in a boxing match and throwing a knee they've practiced 10,000 times in training camp. Toney lets go and gets nailed by an elbow, then taken down. He's not used to that at all. Because the word "boxing" is in the terminology, automatically Randy can't use his bread and butter. It isn't in boxing, it's ILLEGAL in boxing, hence the word "dirty".

Randy is so good at stifling guys against the fence. All of a sudden James Toney is an expert at working the clinch. How so? A ref separates the boxers any time that happens. Toney better hope Mills Lane is working the fight. Randy is so good at working the fence that one mistake by Toney and he'll flash down to grab a leg.

Point is, the notion that James Toney will blast Randy right away is something you'd expect to hear in moderator-less boxing forum. Certainly it's a possibility, but let's not discredit Randy's ability to strike FOR an MMA fight. He knows how to set things up with his striking, not rely on it. I would not be surprised to see him throw some strikes to get a positional advantage on Toney.