Black Head Coaches: Does todays wins help for future candidates in the NFL & college?

[Phixius]

The whole thing shouldn't be an issue. White or black, if you are qualified, you should have a chance to interview for a job. You go to the interviews, do your best, and let your record speak for itself, not the color of your skin.

I agree, yea its a great acheivement for both of them, but they are great HC. Im not surprise that one or both of them are in the Superbowl. They deserve it. They have done a good job coaching during the last few years, and all of the effort Lovie, and Dungy have done, and their players is showing, and thats why they are in the Superbowl.

[Brotherz]

I couldn't find a specific thread about the complaining on every major media outlet about the lack of minority hiring this past NFL cyle. Am I the only one who thinks it is absolutely preposterous to think that this is the result of "current" racism? In other words, that there are not many strong minority candidates worthy of a head coaching or GM spot might be the result of historical racism but that is not the narrative - the narrative is that something needs to be done about the racism CURRENTLY within the league that is resulting in no minority hires. I think that is absolutely ridiculous.

[pjfootballer]

Well, the United States is approximately 72% white, 12% black and 16% made up of other races, so 12% of 32 is about 4 out of 32. We have more black head coaches than that now and for every 7.2 white candidates, you may only find 1.2 black candiates from the pool of available coaches, so it's harder to find a black coach.

And we've had (have) head coaches of other minority races, why are they not included when the NFL or media talks about disparities? Afterall, 16% of the total poplulation makes up other minorities in this country. Ron Rivera would like a word with you.

If this program were truly set in place to help minorities get head coaching gigs, then they wouldn't be so close minded to just mentioning black head coaches.

[DM72]

I'll use Lovie Smith as an example. I have a hard time believing that a white coach coming off a 10-6 record would have trouble getting a job. Andy Reid is coming off of TWO subpar seasons, the last being 4-12, and he wasn't out of work for a week. If he were black, does he get a job that fast? Look at the Buffalo Bills. You're telling me that Marrone is more qualified to be the coach of the Bills than Lovie Smith? What exactly did Marrone do in Syracuse that warrents him getting a HC gig in the NFL?

[TheLongshot]

The Rooney Rule has always been an imperfect mechanism to cultivate minority head coaching hires, because such things go down the line. You need the candidates to be there in the first place. Look at the offensive and defensive coordinators around the league, and you will see that they are a very white bunch. That's the traditional pipeline for people becoming head coaches.

I remember Wilbon's column bemoaning the plight of the black QB in the 90s, but that didn't really change until the college game changed where athletic black QB were put into offenses where they actually threw the ball and not pigeonholed as "running" QBs. College football changed, and now we are seeing it affect the NFL. The same needs to happen with coaches, where they are given opportunities to run offenses and defenses (particularly offense, given the hires this year.)

[gortiz]

If this program were truly set in place to help minorities get head coaching gigs, then they wouldn't be so close minded to just mentioning black head coaches.

Great point pj. I'm HIspanic and even I dismiss this from time to time.

[Taylor703]

I'll use Lovie Smith as an example. I have a hard time believing that a white coach coming off a 10-6 record would have trouble getting a job. Andy Reid is coming off of TWO subpar seasons, the last being 4-12, and he wasn't out of work for a week. If he were black, does he get a job that fast? Look at the Buffalo Bills. You're telling me that Marrone is more qualified to be the coach of the Bills than Lovie Smith? What exactly did Marrone do in Syracuse that warrents him getting a HC gig in the NFL?

Didn't Marty Schottenheimer go 14-2 and got fired and wound up coaching in the UFL?

[pjfootballer]

I'll use Lovie Smith as an example. I have a hard time believing that a white coach coming off a 10-6 record would have trouble getting a job. Andy Reid is coming off of TWO subpar seasons, the last being 4-12, and he wasn't out of work for a week. If he were black, does he get a job that fast? Look at the Buffalo Bills. You're telling me that Marrone is more qualified to be the coach of the Bills than Lovie Smith? What exactly did Marrone do in Syracuse that warrents him getting a HC gig in the NFL?

I guess the one thing that we all do and I suppose the media does is not look at all the factors involved in hiring your head coach. The Rooney Rule only covers race. There are many factors like age, experience, who the GM is and do they get along, what the coaches philosophies are on offense, defense, players behavior, etc. and probably a whole host of other things we know nothing about.

So it's hard to tell why someone like Lovie wouldn't get a job and others have. You can't always just look at won/loss records even though coaches are defined by that. I hope you don't think I'm making excuses, but I'm trying to look at it from a neutral point.

[DM72]

I guess the one thing that we all do and I suppose the media does is not look at all the factors involved in hiring your head coach. The Rooney Rule only covers race. There are many factors like age, experience, who the GM is and do they get along, what the coaches philosophies are on offense, defense, players behavior, etc. and probably a whole host of other things we know nothing about.

So it's hard to tell why someone like Lovie wouldn't get a job and others have. You can't always just look at won/loss records even though coaches are defined by that. I hope you don't think I'm making excuses, but I'm trying to look at it from a neutral point.

And that's another issue. It seems that when it comes to hiring a black coach, everything has to be perfect. You mean to tell me that all these positions that white coaches just got, everything was perfectly in place?

[Brotherz]

I'll use Lovie Smith as an example. I have a hard time believing that a white coach coming off a 10-6 record would have trouble getting a job. Andy Reid is coming off of TWO subpar seasons, the last being 4-12, and he wasn't out of work for a week. If he were black, does he get a job that fast? Look at the Buffalo Bills. You're telling me that Marrone is more qualified to be the coach of the Bills than Lovie Smith? What exactly did Marrone do in Syracuse that warrents him getting a HC gig in the NFL?

That's an interesting point. So you think the Bills are racist? The Chiefs? This is what bothers me about these arguments - (and I'm not talking about you DM) - Wilbon, 106.7 this morning, the guy from First take etc etc - they are all "outraged". They all see a "systemic problem" but they won't specifically name names. They have a problem with the fact that GM's and head Coaches this cycle are white and not minorities.

My problem is the premise of cause and effect. I agree no black head coaches or GM's were hired in the 2013 NFL hiring cycle. That's a fact. That is an effect. The jump however to racism as the cause off that fact seems just as illogical as saying racism is responsible for the poor representation of white basketball players in the NBA. Couldn't it just be that there are more good black basketball players in America than white ones?

Is it outside of the realm of possibility that black coaches and gm's simply have not produced or it might be reasonable to believe based on historical data that they won't produce like the white coach and gm candidates? Hell, how come there are NO women?? Must be sexist!

Sometimes the most obvious conclusion is right.

These owners in my opinion care about ONE color - GREEN. They want to win. These are multi-billion dollar businesses we are talking about. Win and you sell more tickets, parking passes, seat licenses - you get enormous stadium deals and sponsorships. This isn't tiddly winks. These owners could care less if the guy is black, latino or white. They want to freakin win. It might burn some media types asses to admit it but the candidates who were hired were simply the ones these owners thought were best for their franchise.

You want to argue Andy Reid versus Lovie Smith? Seriously? Cmon- don't be a racist - answer honestly, Shanny retires tomorrow and we can get Andy Reid or Lovie Smith. - Who do you want?

But to illustrate the real point let's do a little twist on hiring hypotheticals:

Tony Dungy announces he wants to coach on the Monday after the final regular season weekend when 7 vacancies arise. Is he getting a job? Or are the racist owners gonna pass on him and do telephone interviews with Ron Houston to comply with the Roony rule?

But what about GM's? Same example as Dungy but Ozzie Newsome decides he needs a new challenge - What do you think happens? Does he get a job? Does he get his CHOICE of jobs? Of course he does!!

I heard a commentator this morning say "its atrocious- Its 2013 and the rooney rule is being treated like a joke".

What he should have said is "Its 2013 and the rooner rule IS a joke". And so is every African American mediot out there who won't stare reality in the face that the disparity in coaching and gm's in the nfl is not about skin color - its about production. Forcing these owners to interview black coaches is insulting. Trying to extend the Rooney rule to coordinators now is the typical American politically correct over-reaction to a result we don't like. This isn't the 1970's anymore. You find me a latino coach who will actually win a few superbowls like Billicheck and I will find you 32 teams willing to hire his ass. But if the majority of black head coaches keep producing like Raheem Morris, Mike Singletary, Hue Jackson, Art Shell, Terry Robiski, Ray Rhodes, Herman Edwards, Romeo Cornell, Emmit Thomas and Leslie Frazier- then you might just see this latest trend continue.

There isn't a hiring problem. There isn't a racism problem. There's a successful black coach/GM problem. Ask Mike Tomlin because if he decided to leave Pittsburgh for some reason he would have absolutely been scooped right up.

It appears that Lovie Smith is the one people are upset most about (I am not hearing a ton of vitriol out there for teams passing over Ron Houston) - But let me remind you that teams fire and fail to select coaches for not being able to get their teams past a certain point all the time - even winning coaches - ask Marty Schottenheimer.

I truly hope I haven't offended anyone with my opinion here and it is ONLY my opinion but it just seems to me as a white person looking in that we as a society are now belittling black men by complaining every time they don't perform up to their white counterparts. Black men don't need our help. They are fully capable of competing and winning on their own. They don't need to be treated like babies. They don't need to get forced interviews with owners. They need to kick ass as a position coach, nail down a coordinator job and impress some owners with their unit. Just like everyone else. Maybe saying the failure of black coaches and GM's is the fault of the white team owners who employ 80% black players to win and fill their stadiums is actually doing more harm than good at this point.

[DM72]

Blantant racism? Who knows. But I do believe the NFL is predominantly a good old boys club and there is some cronyism going on.

[SJValleySkinz]

I'll use Lovie Smith as an example. I have a hard time believing that a white coach coming off a 10-6 record would have trouble getting a job. Andy Reid is coming off of TWO subpar seasons, the last being 4-12, and he wasn't out of work for a week. If he were black, does he get a job that fast? Look at the Buffalo Bills. You're telling me that Marrone is more qualified to be the coach of the Bills than Lovie Smith? What exactly did Marrone do in Syracuse that warrents him getting a HC gig in the NFL?

You don't even have to go as far as Lovie Smith. If the argument is they wanted a fresh face how do David Shaw and Charlie Strong not even get interviews and Marrone gets handed the job.

[DM72]

You don't even have to go as far as Lovie Smith. If the argument is they wanted a fresh face how do David Shaw and Charlie Strong not even get interviews and Marrone gets handed the job.

Good point.

[HaveFaith]

Is it blatently racist to seek to find the person you think gives you the best chance at winning the Super-bowl? Those stupid enough to skip hiring a coach because of his color will lose out in the end.

Looking at it the other way, should we institute draft rules that state you must at least comsider drafting as white Wide Receiver or Running Back. should we have some league instituted program to combat the disproportionate lack of white Cornerbacks? Why no cry about lack of Native American Indians, Hispanics or Asians?

Did anyone cry racism that Richie Petibone only got one shot; never to be heard from again after that one season?

If we ever truly want a colorblind society then we must accept that sometimes the results do not mirror our pre-conceived notions of what we want. sometimes our "group" will be over-represented and sometimes it will be under-represented

[SJValleySkinz]

That's an interesting point. So you think the Bills are racist? The Chiefs? This is what bothers me about these arguments - (and I'm not talking about you DM) - Wilbon, 106.7 this morning, the guy from First take etc etc - they are all "outraged". They all see a "systemic problem" but they won't specifically name names. They have a problem with the fact that GM's and head Coaches this cycle are white and not minorities.

My problem is the premise of cause and effect. I agree no black head coaches or GM's were hired in the 2013 NFL hiring cycle. That's a fact. That is an effect. The jump however to racism as the cause off that fact seems just as illogical as saying racism is responsible for the poor representation of white basketball players in the NBA. Couldn't it just be that there are more good black basketball players in America than white ones?

Is it outside of the realm of possibility that black coaches and gm's simply have not produced or it might be reasonable to believe based on historical data that they won't produce like the white coach and gm candidates? Hell, how come there are NO women?? Must be sexist!

Sometimes the most obvious conclusion is right.

These owners in my opinion care about ONE color - GREEN. They want to win. These are multi-billion dollar businesses we are talking about. Win and you sell more tickets, parking passes, seat licenses - you get enormous stadium deals and sponsorships. This isn't tiddly winks. These owners could care less if the guy is black, latino or white. They want to freakin win. It might burn some media types asses to admit it but the candidates who were hired were simply the ones these owners thought were best for their franchise.

You want to argue Andy Reid versus Lovie Smith? Seriously? Cmon- don't be a racist - answer honestly, Shanny retires tomorrow and we can get Andy Reid or Lovie Smith. - Who do you want?

But to illustrate the real point let's do a little twist on hiring hypotheticals:

Tony Dungy announces he wants to coach on the Monday after the final regular season weekend when 7 vacancies arise. Is he getting a job? Or are the racist owners gonna pass on him and do telephone interviews with Ron Houston to comply with the Roony rule?

But what about GM's? Same example as Dungy but Ozzie Newsome decides he needs a new challenge - What do you think happens? Does he get a job? Does he get his CHOICE of jobs? Of course he does!!

I heard a commentator this morning say "its atrocious- Its 2013 and the rooney rule is being treated like a joke".

What he should have said is "Its 2013 and the rooner rule IS a joke". And so is every African American mediot out there who won't stare reality in the face that the disparity in coaching and gm's in the nfl is not about skin color - its about production. Forcing these owners to interview black coaches is insulting. Trying to extend the Rooney rule to coordinators now is the typical American politically correct over-reaction to a result we don't like. This isn't the 1970's anymore. You find me a latino coach who will actually win a few superbowls like Billicheck and I will find you 32 teams willing to hire his ass. But if the majority of black head coaches keep producing like Raheem Morris, Mike Singletary, Hue Jackson, Art Shell, Terry Robiski, Ray Rhodes, Herman Edwards, Romeo Cornell, Emmit Thomas and Leslie Frazier- then you might just see this latest trend continue.

There isn't a hiring problem. There isn't a racism problem. There's a successful black coach/GM problem. Ask Mike Tomlin because if he decided to leave Pittsburgh for some reason he would have absolutely been scooped right up.

It appears that Lovie Smith is the one people are upset most about (I am not hearing a ton of vitriol out there for teams passing over Ron Houston) - But let me remind you that teams fire and fail to select coaches for not being able to get their teams past a certain point all the time - even winning coaches - ask Marty Schottenheimer.

I truly hope I haven't offended anyone with my opinion here and it is ONLY my opinion but it just seems to me as a white person looking in that we as a society are now belittling black men by complaining every time they don't perform up to their white counterparts. Black men don't need our help. They are fully capable of competing and winning on their own. They don't need to be treated like babies. They don't need to get forced interviews with owners. They need to kick ass as a position coach, nail down a coordinator job and impress some owners with their unit. Just like everyone else. Maybe saying the failure of black coaches and GM's is the fault of the white team owners who employ 80% black players to win and fill their stadiums is actually doing more harm than good at this point.

There's a pretty extensive history of discriminatory hiring in this country that you're completely ignoring. Also if you're making a comparison to more black athletes being employed in the NBA and the NFL because they're superior athletes, you're implying (wether you intended to or not) that more white head coaches/GM's are being employed because they're superior at whatever makes a good head coach/GM. That comparison pretty much kills your entire argument.

---------- Post added January-24th-2013 at 12:09 PM ----------

Is it blatently racist to seek to find the person you think gives you the best chance at winning the Super-bowl? Those stupid enough to skip hiring a coach because of his color will lose out in the end.

Looking at it the other way, should we institute draft rules that state you must at least comsider drafting as white Wide Receiver or Running Back. should we have some league instituted program to combat the disproportionate lack of white Cornerbacks? Why no cry about lack of Native American Indians, Hispanics or Asians?

Did anyone cry racism that Richie Petibone only got one shot; never to be heard from again after that one season?

If we ever truly want a colorblind society then we must accept that sometimes the results do not mirror our pre-conceived notions of what we want. sometimes our "group" will be over-represented and sometimes it will be under-represented

More often than not blacks are just superior athletically than whites so you can't make that comparison unless you're saying whites are superior intelectually which isn't true.