Black Head Coaches: Does todays wins help for future candidates in the NFL & college?

[Bang]

I gotta tellya,, it's high time we address the issue of racism in America by focusing on 32 jobs that are worth millions of dollars.
Pulling some poor downtrodden assistant coach from the dregs of his six figure salary and putting him in charge of a multi-million dollar organization has got to do wonders for cleaning up all these silly old racial problems.

The rubber really hits the road there, baby.

~Bang

[Yeen80]

I dont know about you guys, but the Rooney Rule is comedy as its best.

Chiefs interviewed a black equipment assistant (or groundskeeper) to satisfy the rule only to hire Andy Reid a day later. Its more of an insult than it is fair play.

[DM72]

I dont know about you guys, but the Rooney Rule is comedy as its best.

Chiefs interviewed a black equipment assistant (or groundskeeper) to satisfy the rule only to hire Andy Reid a day later. Its more of an insult than it is fair play.

Seriously? WOW!

[Bang]

I dont know about you guys, but the Rooney Rule is comedy as its best.

Chiefs interviewed a black equipment assistant (or groundskeeper) to satisfy the rule only to hire Andy Reid a day later. Its more of an insult than it is fair play.

This is the end result of the Rooney Rule.

By FORCINg people to do these interviews, you create tokens.

The NFL is 32 jobs. That's it. 32.. and for their team it's worth a lot of money if a coach can win.
A LOT of money.

There's no way I can believe that with that much cash on the line, that the 32 guys who have risen high enough to afford to buy a team are going to be so narrow minded as to allow race to factor into their coaching decision.
this isn't your Wal Mart manager, or your plumbing sub foreman, or any other usual job out there that real people have and face REAL discrimination.

All it does is reduce a man to the color of his skin.
If you're a candidate for a head coaching job it should be because you can possibly DO the job, not because you fulfill a check box.
Now, any candidate of color has to wonder if the call he gets is because of his ability, or his skin.

the fact the Chiefs had to interview a groundskeeper to fulfill it does two things.
A/ it humiliates and degrades the hell out of that guy..
B/ it puts them in a position t have to make up some dumbass lie to say to this poor guy's face.
The chiefs should want Andy Reid. he's a good coach with a strong track record, one of the winningest coaches of the last decade.
If they want him, they should be able to go GET him without having to put on a ridiculous minstrel show.

~Bang

[HeluCopter29]

The Rooney rule is a joke, although I understand the rational behind it.

How about the NFL pump some of that 9 billion a year into underprivileged (which are largely black) neighborhoods to help develop football minds?

[Fan since a Fetus]

Chiefs interviewed a black equipment assistant (or groundskeeper) to satisfy the rule only to hire Andy Reid a day later. Its more of an insult than it is fair play.

Where did you hear that?

They interviewed Keith Armstrong for HC, he is currently the Special Teams Coordinator for the Falcons. For the GM position, they interviewed their own Ray Farmer who was their Director of Player Personnel.

I really don't see the need to interview a black equipment assistant. Especially when these two satisfied the rule.

But, the rule is dumb. The best man is going to get the job. NFL is big business and I truly believe that they are going to hire the guy that they believe make them the most money regardless of skin color.

[NLC1054]

The Rooney Rule isn't a joke. It's poorly executed, but it's not a joke.

If the story about the Chiefs interviewing a black groundskeeper to satisfy the Rooney Rule is true, then the NFL should come down hard on the Chiefs and they shouldn't have approved Andy Reid's contract.

The problem with the Rooney Rule is it's not broad enough. Lovie Smith is a great head coach who, basically, got treated like the token black guy to satisfy the Rooney Rule. The Rooney Rule is supposed to force clubs to do their due dilligence, and in it's current form it just don't.

There's not some malicious intent here by the NFL owners, at least I don't think so. But if you only meet with one black guy and 10 white dudes, what are the odds you're going to hire the black guy, particularly when you're not even being 100% honest about wanting him to be your head football coach in the first place? Guys like Lovie Smith and Perry Fewell are solid coaches that basically get flown out to satisfy the Rooney Rule and then never get another call after that. They're not looked at as potential head coaches, really; they're looked at as an obstacle to overcome.

The lack of head coaches and offensive coordinators of color isn't for lack of qualified candidates. But those guys just never get interviewed. Or they get interviewed and never hear a call again. And it's not because they're not qualified or not as good as the dozens of white coaches who get hired every year.

Fact is if you don't force people's hands sometimes, they just won't. Not because they're willfully trying to discriminate, but just because people naturally feel comfortable with people that are like themselves. If you don't have to interview a person of color, then unless that person is just some over-the-top, incredible head coaching prospect (like David Shaw will be in the next few years), you just won't.

The Eagles interviewed how many head coaches this offseason? And they only interviewed one black guy; Lovie. That's ridiculous.

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 12:25 AM ----------

There's no way I can believe that with that much cash on the line, that the 32 guys who have risen high enough to afford to buy a team are going to be so narrow minded as to allow race to factor into their coaching decision.
this isn't your Wal Mart manager, or your plumbing sub foreman, or any other usual job out there that real people have and face REAL discrimination.

With all due respect, because I agree with 90% of what you say; this is a pretty naive viewpoint to have.

Money and success don't make people color blind. It doesn't even make people smart. How long did it take Dan Snyder to realize he couldn't buy his way to a Super Bowl? That in order for the team to flourish he had to step back.? That, perhaps, kicking field goals with Vinny to figure out why all the kicker sucked and intimidating and humiliating coordinators probably wasn't going to make him well liked?

In fact, that much money being on the line makes it easier to make the perceived "safer" choice than the riskier choice.

Like I said, the Eagles invited and talk to all those head coaching candidates, and they only interviewed ONE person of color. Do you think not having the Rooney Rule makes it more likely they would've asked in more people of color for interviews, or less?

The Eagles tried to coax Brian Billick out of the booth before they even thought about calling someone like Hue Jackson, or Ray Horton. Kevin Sumlin's offense has been just as explosive as Chip Kelly's at Houston and now at Texas A&M with Johnny Football, but he's not a hot head coaching candidate. Bobby Turner is one of the best running back coaches the league has ever seen; how many head coaching offers has he gotten in his lengthy career? Same with Terry Robiskie, who's been an offensive coordinator and wide receiver coach that's pretty much only been interviewed for a head coach job once, and that was when he had been the interim coach. (Ultimately the Browns did go with Romeo Crennel in that one case.)

If you don't make teams do their due diligence, they just won't. They have no reason to. There are "safer" choices out there.

[Yeen80]

Where did you hear that?

They interviewed Keith Armstrong for HC, he is currently the Special Teams Coordinator for the Falcons. For the GM position, they interviewed their own Ray Farmer who was their Director of Player Personnel.

I really don't see the need to interview a black equipment assistant. Especially when these two satisfied the rule.

But, the rule is dumb. The best man is going to get the job. NFL is big business and I truly believe that they are going to hire the guy that they believe make them the most money regardless of skin color.

You know what.....My bad guys. That was it was. A special teams coordinator. Not sure why I interpreted that as an equipment assistant, but my assessment is the same. And its pretty damn close. The fact that they interviewed a totally unqualified black candidate is completely ridiculous. Whether its a special teams coordinator, or building security

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 01:42 AM ----------

On another note. Does anyone know the story of Mike Tomlin? Was he a product of the Rooney Rule?

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 01:42 AM ----------

On another note. Does anyone know the story of Mike Tomlin? Was he a product of the Rooney Rule?

[Laron Burgundy]

This is the end result of the Rooney Rule.

By FORCINg people to do these interviews, you create tokens.

The NFL is 32 jobs. That's it. 32.. and for their team it's worth a lot of money if a coach can win.
A LOT of money.

There's no way I can believe that with that much cash on the line, that the 32 guys who have risen high enough to afford to buy a team are going to be so narrow minded as to allow race to factor into their coaching decision.
this isn't your Wal Mart manager, or your plumbing sub foreman, or any other usual job out there that real people have and face REAL discrimination.

All it does is reduce a man to the color of his skin.
If you're a candidate for a head coaching job it should be because you can possibly DO the job, not because you fulfill a check box.
Now, any candidate of color has to wonder if the call he gets is because of his ability, or his skin.

the fact the Chiefs had to interview a groundskeeper to fulfill it does two things.
A/ it humiliates and degrades the hell out of that guy..
B/ it puts them in a position t have to make up some dumbass lie to say to this poor guy's face.
The chiefs should want Andy Reid. he's a good coach with a strong track record, one of the winningest coaches of the last decade.
If they want him, they should be able to go GET him without having to put on a ridiculous minstrel show.

~Bang

This is what I think is the preposterous thing too. Do you think a team owner, whose team is mostly black men, some who get paid MORE than the head coach, is really racist enough to not at least consider a black coach if one were qualified? They have black players because, at the end of the day, having the best product will make you the most money. If having a black coach was the best coach they could get, I guarantee teams would be interested in one. It just blows my mind that this is even an issue. It would be like if teams had to have certain racial ratios in their roster or be penalized for it. Nobody would even think about asking teams to do that. Blacks make up 12% of the total US population, black head coaches make up 10% of the nfl population; last year they made up 15%. How is this a problem?

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 01:19 AM ----------

With all due respect, because I agree with 90% of what you say; this is a pretty naive viewpoint to have.

Money and success don't make people color blind. It doesn't even make people smart. How long did it take Dan Snyder to realize he couldn't buy his way to a Super Bowl? That in order for the team to flourish he had to step back.? That, perhaps, kicking field goals with Vinny to figure out why all the kicker sucked and intimidating and humiliating coordinators probably wasn't going to make him well liked?

Just quoting this to point out my reply as it applies to this. I think it's silly to flip out about black head coaches when, in fact, they are almost exactly what you would expect given the total US population. Perhaps more disparaging is the disparity between roster demographics and US demographics. 49 of the 69 players who were on our roster this year were black. That's 71%! Only 12% of the US population is black. Where is the rooney rule for rosters? Oh wait, we expect teams to hire the most qualified player regardless of their race, and some of these players get paid more than head coaches, but yet teams are biased when hiring head coaches? That makes absolutely zero sense.

[NLC1054]

Just quoting this to point out my reply as it applies to this. I think it's silly to flip out about black head coaches when, in fact, they are almost exactly what you would expect given the total US population. Perhaps more disparaging is the disparity between roster demographics and US demographics. 49 of the 69 players who were on our roster this year were black. That's 71%! Only 12% of the US population is black. Where is the rooney rule for rosters? Oh wait, we expect teams to hire the most qualified player regardless of their race, and some of these players get paid more than head coaches, but yet teams are biased when hiring head coaches? That makes absolutely zero sense.

1.) It's not about racism. It's not like a bunch of owners sat around and said "WE'RE NOT HIRING BLACK GUYS!". There are more subtle forms of discrimination in the world; people who don't experience it will probably never understand it.


2.) Really? We're going by total US population to determine what the "right" number of black or Hispanic or whatever coaches is? Where are you getting your numbers from? Because just a cursory glance at Wikipedia puts the African-American population at 14.1 and that demo is growing, and the Hispanic population is growing at an exponential rate.


3.) Your point about roster population actually proves my point; there are a lot of people of color that are assistant coaches. Using your logic, the number of people of color who are head coaches should be higher given how many of people of color are on coaching staffs, regardless of overall population.


4.) While the concept that NFL owners have too much invested to ever ignore any qualified coaching candidate is nice, it's pretty damn well not true. Owners make bad decisions on coaches all the time. You mean to tell me Jim Zorn was the most qualified candidate for a job?


5,) Basically, what you're saying is that the reason there are only four people of color in head coaching positions is because there are only four people of color in the NFL that are qualified for the job. The reason that teams only interviewed one or two coaches that weren't white was because there simply wasn't enough people of color who were actually qualified. It's not discrimination to you; it's just that there's more white dudes qualified than everyone else. Or am I wrong?

[Bubble Screen]

And that's another issue. It seems that when it comes to hiring a black coach, everything has to be perfect. You mean to tell me that all these positions that white coaches just got, everything was perfectly in place?

What it comes down to is whether or not an owner wants to hire a black head coach. I think the Rooney Rule is good to have in place. But all it does is guarantees a team interview at least one black candidate during their hiring process. If a team abides by that, then what can you do? You can't force an owner to hire who he doesn't want to hire.

There have been great strides made, as far as black head coaches in the NFL. But in order for to get even better, you have to start at the collegiate level. There are only a handful of Division I head coaches out there right now, if memory serves. I think if there are more minority head coaches there, it will eventually lead to more candidates at the NFL level. And then you will also possibly see more black GMs, owners, etc.

I also found it a little odd how Andy Reid was able to land a job so fast. Like you said, he hasn't done anything the past two years. As far as Lovie Smith goes: sure, on the surface you wouldn't think a guy that goes 10-6 would get fired. But didn't they start out 7-1? You do have to take that into account. Now why he didn't get another job, is beyond me. I certainly felt like he did a good enough job with the Bears to land another coaching gig elsewhere.

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 02:53 AM ----------

You don't even have to go as far as Lovie Smith. If the argument is they wanted a fresh face how do David Shaw and Charlie Strong not even get interviews and Marrone gets handed the job.

Probably because Shaw and Strong don't WANT to be NFL head coaches. I haven't heard either guy mention anything about the NFL. And both have GREAT gigs in college.

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 02:56 AM ----------

I heard someone on the Radio say, "This isn't the first time two brothers are coaching against eachother in the Super Bowl."

Yeah, and they got that from Deion Sanders. He was saying that after the playoff games on Sunday. I hope the bozo on the radio at least gave Sanders credit.

[Laron Burgundy]

1.) It's not about racism. It's not like a bunch of owners sat around and said "WE'RE NOT HIRING BLACK GUYS!". There are more subtle forms of discrimination in the world; people who don't experience it will probably never understand it.


2.) Really? We're going by total US population to determine what the "right" number of black or Hispanic or whatever coaches is? Where are you getting your numbers from? Because just a cursory glance at Wikipedia puts the African-American population at 14.1 and that demo is growing, and the Hispanic population is growing at an exponential rate.


3.) Your point about roster population actually proves my point; there are a lot of people of color that are assistant coaches. Using your logic, the number of people of color who are head coaches should be higher given how many of people of color are on coaching staffs, regardless of overall population.


4.) While the concept that NFL owners have too much invested to ever ignore any qualified coaching candidate is nice, it's pretty damn well not true. Owners make bad decisions on coaches all the time. You mean to tell me Jim Zorn was the most qualified candidate for a job?


5,) Basically, what you're saying is that the reason there are only four people of color in head coaching positions is because there are only four people of color in the NFL that are qualified for the job. The reason that teams only interviewed one or two coaches that weren't white was because there simply wasn't enough people of color who were actually qualified. It's not discrimination to you; it's just that there's more white dudes qualified than everyone else. Or am I wrong?

Even if the total population is 14.1, you're arguing a difference of 10% compared to 14%. You can not DENY the player proportions are far from national demographics. And no, that wasn't demographics on our coaching staff, that was our player roster. Why is it a huge deal when 32 people who make around 5 mil a year are in proportion to their actual US demographics, but when the player base of SEVENTEEN HUNDRED is 70% black with some making over 10 mil a year there's no concern? I'm sorry but that is just being whiny. I could understand if head coaches made 50+ mil a year, but as is you're arguing about discrimination in a position that pays less. And, to add to it, you're arguing that they see 10x as many white coaches, which, mind you, that would be well within the expected results based on population balance. This is being over-sensitive, tell me how high of a percent do you think they should have to see?

As to point 4, owners do make bad decisions, but I think it's a stretch to see them as malicious decisions. As to point 5, yes, there are more white dudes qualified than everyone else because there are more white dudes. It probably is close to the population demographics. I'm not saying that white people are INHERENTLY better coaches, it's not about racial capability, it's about sheer numbers. When the amount of nfl coaches who are black is close to the national demographics, I really can not fathom why that is an outrage.

[Bang]

With all due respect, because I agree with 90% of what you say; this is a pretty naive viewpoint to have.

Money and success don't make people color blind. It doesn't even make people smart. How long did it take Dan Snyder to realize he couldn't buy his way to a Super Bowl? That in order for the team to flourish he had to step back.? That, perhaps, kicking field goals with Vinny to figure out why all the kicker sucked and intimidating and humiliating coordinators probably wasn't going to make him well liked?

In fact, that much money being on the line makes it easier to make the perceived "safer" choice than the riskier choice.

Like I said, the Eagles invited and talk to all those head coaching candidates, and they only interviewed ONE person of color. Do you think not having the Rooney Rule makes it more likely they would've asked in more people of color for interviews, or less?

The Eagles tried to coax Brian Billick out of the booth before they even thought about calling someone like Hue Jackson, or Ray Horton. Kevin Sumlin's offense has been just as explosive as Chip Kelly's at Houston and now at Texas A&M with Johnny Football, but he's not a hot head coaching candidate. Bobby Turner is one of the best running back coaches the league has ever seen; how many head coaching offers has he gotten in his lengthy career? Same with Terry Robiskie, who's been an offensive coordinator and wide receiver coach that's pretty much only been interviewed for a head coach job once, and that was when he had been the interim coach. (Ultimately the Browns did go with Romeo Crennel in that one case.)

If you don't make teams do their due diligence, they just won't. They have no reason to. There are "safer" choices out there.

these are certainly fair points, and the respect is mutual, my friend.
Part of me wants to say that if a guy is going to be that dumb, he deserves to be the loser he'll be.
And another part of me wants to say that it's probably just my optimism that has me wishing that those points weren't so true.
But they are.
You have caused me to rethink the Rooney rule, not necessarily from the perspective that it will actually do any good in the real world where we live, but in that it's just as important in that world where they live.
I still do not like that it puts the 'token' problem in the forefront, and i don't like that it probably causes plenty of black coaches to wonder why they got the call... but at the same time there's reason to see that everyone gets a fair shake.
Nice job.


~Bang

[pjfootballer]

And we've had (have) head coaches of other minority races, why are they not included when the NFL or media talks about disparities? Afterall, 16% of the total poplulation makes up other minorities in this country. Ron Rivera would like a word with you.

If this program were truly set in place to help minorities get head coaching gigs, then they wouldn't be so close minded to just mentioning black head coaches.

I find it funny that after 2 more pages, no one wants to answer this question or comment on it. Why is it that when we talk about head coaching opportunities, blacks are the only minority that anyone is concerned about? 16% of the rest of the population of non white or non black makes up the rest of our country. Why aren't there more Ron Riveras? Why are there more Asian coaches?

[MLSKINS]

How about the NFL pump some of that 9 billion a year into underprivileged (which are largely black) neighborhoods to help develop football minds?

Who said there aren't any black football minds that are already sharp?

I don't know how to feel about this though. Part of me wants to say that this isn't a big deal, maybe there just weren't any black coaches that were qualified for the jobs this time around. But when it comes to race issues, unfortunately you just can't brush stuff off like this. Most of the time when something feels wrong in situations like this, there is some truth too it.

---------- Post added January-25th-2013 at 08:07 AM ----------

I find it funny that after 2 more pages, no one wants to answer this question or comment on it. Why is it that when we talk about head coaching opportunities, blacks are the only minority that anyone is concerned about? 16% of the rest of the population of non white or non black makes up the rest of our country. Why aren't there more Ron Riveras? Why are there more Asian coaches?

Okay, I'll bite and ask you this question... How many Hispanics and Asians are playing football?