Jerseys - Game-Worn, Team-Issued, Authentic, Replica, Fake, and everything in between

[Mark The Homer]

fake or real?

You're asking if the jersey is fake or an Authentic. I can't tell from that crappy single photo. But if I was to guess, I'd say it's a fake simply because the seller goes to no trouble to convince me otherwise.

lweidy - Thanks for your comments. You have a lot of background to draw on. I don't really know what the explanation is. You may be right. But I'm not sure if it matters. The fact is, the jersey is tainted in some way. I think that's pretty clear (sorry REDSKINS8181). I'm gonna get some sleep and look this over again tomorrow but, regardless, there is something about the jersey that isn't right. That much we know for sure.

'Night

[Mark The Homer]

Okay, like I said above, there is something odd about that particular jersey, so I'm going to take it out of post #1. I had noticed the missing sleeve logo before, but kind of assumed it was just folded underneath. But now that you've brought up the number font, and now that it's confirmed the second logo is missing, I'm going to take that jersey out.

Regardless, I'd like to reply to some of your comments.

Ok, I look at that vertical seem as something that an equipment manager can send out and have the club’s local tailor add on at the request of him or a player.

I agree with you that's possible, but it just seems hard for me to believe they'd go to that trouble. It's not clear to me what real advantage there is to the panelling. I see it as more of an experiment by the manufacturer (I assume it's Ripon) to see what could be done to make the jerseys more snug to the body.

Another thing I notice is, each time a logo changes, there is some detail about the jersey that changes, even though the actual manufacturer is the same. In my mind, the paneling was a detail that changed. But I do acknowledge that the vast majority of '97 jerseys didn't have the paneling.

I can (and won’t) get over the difference in the numbers. Unless numbers are sewn on or heat pressed (which can be done after it leaves the factory), that is to me is the overwhelming indicator of the manufacturer of an item. If they have adopted a certain style (which Ripon does), it almost becomes a trademark. Ok, not in a legal sense but for identification purposes.

Right. I agree something is up with the numbers. But you do know that Ripon provides a wide variety of number fonts right?

http://www.riponathletic.com/Desktop...ModuleId=10333

But yes, I agree the number font tends to be fixed in a particular year.

This exists in baseball, as well. On Uniwatch, folks often refer to “Red Sox numbers” as their distinctive style of numbering they’ve used for years. They are in fact McAuliffe numbers. They made team jerseys for years and that style was always used by them. Since McAuliffe is a Boston based company, the Sox used them longer than most other teams and those number became synonymous with the Sox and were used (probably at the request of the club) even when they switched companies.

I just reviewed the 1997 highlight film and video highlight reel from the entire ’97 season and did not see one other jersey that matched the number style used on that particular jersey. I discovered you “stash” of photos (Getty Image), reviewed the entire ’97 catalog and again had not one match.

Bottom line for me on this is it’s much easier to switch a couple of tags, add a couple of seems then it is to screen completely different shaped numbers on a jersey. I mean, screened numbers are irremovable and no other Wilson jersey has those numbers, what is the more logical answer? That’s a Ripon jersey redone with Wilson tags (IMO).

Wait a sec. Are you saying you believe I think that that jersey was actually manufactured by Wilson? I believe all the 1997 game jerseys are Ripon jerseys with Wilson logos. In fact, I believe all the Redskins gamers since '91 are Ripon. But I admit this is an assumption.

First of all, no one’s dissing the jersey, that’s not the point. I believe it’s an anomaly with probably a story behind it but to say it was completely manufactured by Wilson Sporting Goods for use in the 1997 season is ignoring some pretty strong evidence.

In response to R-8181, he has the jersey so that gives him a leg up, provided he is looking for the right things. He said the Wilson logo is embroidered, does that mean it’s sewn completely through the fabric (like the Adidas logo was)? When it’s inside out do you see the complete Wilson logo (backwards) or just the outline of thread that attached the logo?

To the best of my knowledge, all tags on the 1991-1996 Starter jerseys were not embroidered into the fabric but patches that were sewn directly on to jersey thus making it relatively easily to move. Even the inside tag can be remove if you know how.

For what it's worth, my Monk authentic, made in the USA, has a Starter patch. It's an embroidered patch which is then sewn to the sleeve. I don't own a Starter gamer, so I can't talk about what the gamers have, but I kind of assume it's a patch which is sewn, and I also kind of assume my Monk Authentic is a Ripon (I make a lot of what I hope are educated assumptions)

...and by the way, the photo below proves that Ripon made Starter uniforms for at least one year - 1998.

I think you guy are putting way too much stock in those shoulder panels. If you’re saying “that’s a Wilson thing” Here are three guys that don’t have them: ...
I’m telling you that’s all part of the customizing of jerseys. Players all ask for tailoring to suit their needs and it’s done locally. Paul Lucas’s at UW has done profiles on the dry cleaner that does all the tailoring of New York Giants jerseys. Believe it or not, it’s a little old lady doing the sewing. Wilson Sporting Goods is located in Chicago, you can’t keep sending stuff back and forth when a player wants something done. It’s reasonable to say that those sort of alterations would be done locally independent of Wilson thus they would not be indigenous to Wilson jerseys. Because Terry Allen had it in 1997 and not 1996 might just indicate that this was a new process and Allen was employing it for the first time. Since not everyone did it, it would certainly indicate that it was not part of the standard production process.

Agreed. But again, I believe the jerseys in 1997 were Ripon jerseys with Wilson logos.

I have tried to provided at least reasonable possibilities for the differences that exist but I’ve yet to hear a similar explanation of how numbers that aren’t on ANY other Wilson jerseys ended up on this one. I mean, help me see the light guys!

Because the jersey was a blank, and the numbers were added in '98 or early '99. lol

But, you say it's not probable since the numbers are screened.

And you could be right.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. Let REDSKINS8181 figure it out, it's his jersey.

So, what do you think about my contention that the 1997 jerseys are Ripon jerseys?

[REDSKINS8181]

Ok, I look at that vertical seem as something that an equipment manager can send out and have the club’s local tailor add on at the request of him or a player.

I can (and won’t) get over the difference in the numbers. Unless numbers are sewn on or heat pressed (which can be done after it leaves the factory), that is to me is the overwhelming indicator of the manufacturer of an item. If they have adopted a certain style (which Ripon does), it almost becomes a trademark. Ok, not in a legal sense but for identification purposes.

This exists in baseball, as well. On Uniwatch, folks often refer to “Red Sox numbers” as their distinctive style of numbering they’ve used for years. They are in fact McAuliffe numbers. They made team jerseys for years and that style was always used by them. Since McAuliffe is a Boston based company, the Sox used them longer than most other teams and those number became synonymous with the Sox and were used (probably at the request of the club) even when they switched companies.

I just reviewed the 1997 highlight film and video highlight reel from the entire ’97 season and did not see one other jersey that matched the number style used on that particular jersey. I discovered you “stash” of photos (Getty Image), reviewed the entire ’97 catalog and again had not one match.

Bottom line for me on this is it’s much easier to switch a couple of tags, add a couple of seems then it is to screen completely different shaped numbers on a jersey. I mean, screened numbers are irremovable and no other Wilson jersey has those numbers, what is the more logical answer? That’s a Ripon jersey redone with Wilson tags (IMO).

No offense taken. Obviously the Wilson font, for lack of a better term, is thicker than the Starter/Ripon number font. What really intrigues me is if the team would have the ability to remove the Starter logos and embroider at Wilson logo on one of the sleeves, as the photo indicates.

[Mark The Homer]

The embroidered Wilson logo does seem to indicate it was done by the manufacturer - at least to me.

[lwiedy]

Thanks for the extra photo. Yes, that is definitely embroidered into the fabric. But that photo also serves useful to closely examine the nature of the numbering. That is unquestionably a screened number, something next to impossible to do outside the factory. And Mark, that variety of Ripon number styles almost proves my point. Keep in mind that is from today (I assume) not 1996, so offering variety is just good business. A number of the jerseys have that "traditional" style. I've never seen that style on any other makers items. Go to the Wilson site, I'll bet you don't see that style.

Seeing those numbers up close excludes the argument that it was blank and numbered by the club. Screening require a pattern that the “paint” will follow and some would have to cut a pattern, screen the gold, then the white…..it’s a real pain in the ass. A team would simply have vinyl number and have them heat pressed.

How about this theory. When the Skins made the decision to make the switch to Wilson, they asked Wilson if they could send unused jerseys from the previous season and “retrofit” them for potential use in 1997. Maybe practice jerseys. Wilson certainly would be equipped for such a job and I don't think Wilson would like players wearing Starter jerseys even in practice after procuring the business, with cameras and all at training camp a practice.

[lwiedy]

I was tooling around some old materials and found the 1997 Redskins merchandise catalog. This is what they claimed to be selling for the 1997 season.

I am almost reluctant to post this since this is a retail item not a game worn jersey. But it does seem to bear a very close resembleance to this:

[Mark The Homer]

Thanks for the extra photo. Yes, that is definitely embroidered into the fabric. But that photo also serves useful to closely examine the nature of the numbering. That is unquestionably a screened number, something next to impossible to do outside the factory.

Why is that? I agree it's screened because you can see the texture of the fabric underneath the screening, right? But I don't understand why you say it's so difficult to do screening outside the factory.

Check this site:

http://www.classiccustomtshirt.com/

This is a place I go to in person. They do screening of sports jerseys. And this is not some big operation - it's pretty small. So small they were willing to screen "MONK" according to my specifications onto a nylon nameplate, for $10. They did it in house.

And Mark, that variety of Ripon number styles almost proves my point. Keep in mind that is from today (I assume) not 1996, so offering variety is just good business. A number of the jerseys have that "traditional" style. I've never seen that style on any other makers items. Go to the Wilson site, I'll bet you don't see that style.

Seeing those numbers up close excludes the argument that it was blank and numbered by the club. Screening require a pattern that the “paint” will follow and some would have to cut a pattern, screen the gold, then the white…..it’s a real pain in the ass. A team would simply have vinyl number and have them heat pressed.

Okay, two examples, both of which are Starter Authentic jerseys with the exact same loop tags and the exact same logo application (not embroidered directly on but sewn on patch) but not the exact same jock tag.

My white Monk Authentic. That jersey has screened numbers. First the big number is screened. Then, the gold outline is screened on top of (and effectively around) the big number. Yes, I'm sure.

My burgundy Brooks Authentic. That jersey, it appears, has a screened gold outline that was applied first. Then, a slightly smaller number was PRESSED on. I can tell it was pressed because it's very thick and it's trying to peel off in a few places.

How about this theory. When the Skins made the decision to make the switch to Wilson, they asked Wilson if they could send unused jerseys from the previous season and “retrofit” them for potential use in 1997. Maybe practice jerseys. Wilson certainly would be equipped for such a job and I don't think Wilson would like players wearing Starter jerseys even in practice after procuring the business, with cameras and all at training camp a practice.

So your theory assumes the '97 gamers are made by Ripon, but that some left over '96 Starter jerseys were sent to Wilson to have the logo and jock tag attached. Since the number was already applied, they left it. Hence the odd font.

What about the paneling?

[Mark The Homer]

I was tooling around some old materials and found the 1997 Redskins merchandise catalog. This is what they claimed to be selling for the 1997 season.

I am almost reluctant to post this since this is a retail item not a game worn jersey. But it does seem to bear a very close resembleance to this:

Check the collar of the white jersey.

You're right, the number fonts shown are very close to the gamers.

I wasn't sure that retail jerseys were Wilson jerseys. Sometimes the retail jerseys were different back in the 90s. I think. Apparently in 1997 they got it right.

Problem is - that photo and those jerseys don't really tell us anything for certain because I think they are the work of a digital artist. Look at the folds and the shadows. Both those jerseys are the same jersey. They're just colored differently. And I bet all the team jerseys that were used in the various team catalogs throughout the league in 1997 were taken from this single jersey. I don't think we can conclude anything definite from these photos, unfortunately.

[lwiedy]

Check the collar of the white jersey.
Problem is - that photo and those jerseys don't really tell us anything for certain because I think they are the work of a digital artist.

Those are two reasons why I was reluctant to use the photo. But the number style is dead on. Again, there isn't one example of a '97 player using a jersey with the previous year's number style in photos, video, anything. So old #37 was the only one?

As for your comments on screen printing, yes it can be done by any local screen printer, but the one thing every club can do in the equipment room is heat press numbers, so if they were going to add numbers a blank jersey, that they could do themselves. They could certainly go locally and have numbers screen printed on but I seriously doubt they would go locally and say "Put 37 on this jersey and use the style number that we don't use anymore eventhough we know now what style Wilson is using."

You replied : "So your theory assumes the '97 gamers are made by Ripon, but that some left over '96 Starter jerseys were sent to Wilson to have the logo and jock tag attached. Since the number was already applied, they left it. Hence the odd font."

I don't know if you misspoke and meant to say "the '97 gamers are made by Wilson" but that's what my theory is, and I don't think that's a theory, it pretty obvious.

You asked: "What about the paneling" Well, what about it? IF Wilson retrofit the jersey they certainly would be capable of doing it.

Look fellas, you've done it. You've exausted me. I give up. I really don't know what else to say, so if you really want that to be a '97 Wilson gamer, than you have my blessing

[Mark The Homer]

lol I was exhausted two days ago.

Okay, I say we forget about the jersey in question. It doesn't matter.

I'd like to positively figure out the 1997 Wilson jerseys eventually. You suspect they were made at the Wilson factory. You say it's obvious based on the number font change.

My theory is, Ripon changes things around on purpose whenever there is a logo change. Hence, the changed number fonts.

Furthermore, if Ripon had been manufacturing Redskins gamers since 1991, which I strongly believe they had, while at the same time using corporate sponsored (i.e. Starter) logos on the sleeves and jock tag, it seems odd to me to change both the corporate sponser and the gamer manufacturer at the same time. And then, one year later, abruptly change again, going back the way things were before.

It makes more sense to me that the Wilson sponsorship began and ended with the 1997 calendar year, and it didn't affect who was actually doing the game jersey manufacturing, except for logo changes and font changes.

Which probably means I'll have to buy a Wilson gamer, which would be fine with me if I could find one. I'll keep my eyes open. Once I find one, we should be able to positively prove or disprove our respective theories.

In the meantime, I'd like to move deeper into the 80s at some point.

Thanks for your help.

[REDSKINS8181]

Those are two reasons why I was reluctant to use the photo. But the number style is dead on. Again, there isn't one example of a '97 player using a jersey with the previous year's number style in photos, video, anything. So old #37 was the only one?

As for your comments on screen printing, yes it can be done by any local screen printer, but the one thing every club can do in the equipment room is heat press numbers, so if they were going to add numbers a blank jersey, that they could do themselves. They could certainly go locally and have numbers screen printed on but I seriously doubt they would go locally and say "Put 37 on this jersey and use the style number that we don't use anymore eventhough we know now what style Wilson is using."

You replied : "So your theory assumes the '97 gamers are made by Ripon, but that some left over '96 Starter jerseys were sent to Wilson to have the logo and jock tag attached. Since the number was already applied, they left it. Hence the odd font."

I don't know if you misspoke and meant to say "the '97 gamers are made by Wilson" but that's what my theory is, and I don't think that's a theory, it pretty obvious.

You asked: "What about the paneling" Well, what about it? IF Wilson retrofit the jersey they certainly would be capable of doing it.

Look fellas, you've done it. You've exausted me. I give up. I really don't know what else to say, so if you really want that to be a '97 Wilson gamer, than you have my blessing

Honestly, I couldn't care less if it is a '97 Wilson gamer.

What matters most to me is that it is a unique, and very cool looking jersey that fits me great and that it's a recognizable player from the era. Certainly not a gamer, but still a good deal....I think I paid $48 bucks for it.

Next subject....

[Mark The Homer]

There are some posts in this thread which are related to jerseys, so I'm providing the link in case somebody would like to comment:

http://extremeskins.com/showthread.php?t=276795&page=2

[lwiedy]

I realize this auction has ended, but here is an "authentic" that is authentic:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=020
IMO, the 2000 Adidas was the only retail jersey "off the rack" that could actually meet all standards, nameplates, lettering, numbering, side panels, etc. That's as long as you didn't get stuck with the crappy version, right Mark?

[lwiedy]

Here are the Skins uniform specs as they were published in 1992:

I’ve also taken the liberty to “Portis-ize” the socks in the second image. For the record, I think the red socks with the red pants suck. I realize the impetus for this kind of football “style”, and I don’t believe the inmates should run the asylum.

[Mark The Homer]

I realize this auction has ended, but here is an "authentic" that is authentic:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=020
IMO, the 2000 Adidas was the only retail jersey "off the rack" that could actually meet all standards, nameplates, lettering, numbering, side panels, etc. That's as long as you didn't get stuck with the crappy version, right Mark?

Yes, sir. That's the last one I know of that was truly an authentic - the 2000 burgundy authentic. Very, very nice, accurate jersey.

BTW, I learned some stuff about Wilson jerseys. Ripon didn't make them. In the mid 90s, Wilson jerseys were apparently made by Wilson. Who knew? Haha. They had a factory in Easton, PA, according to a guy on www.nextleveltalk.com.

...and BTW, not many people will appreciate this, but today I was looking my 2001 Adidas Marshall jersey over, and comparing it to my 2002 Reebok Betts. I've had this Marshall jersey for like five years, and I noticed something today that I never notice before. The 6 and 9 are totally different!





Look at the bottom left part of the 6 and the top right part of the 9. Totally different! First time I've noticed this is five years. UFB!

Thing is, I'm now not convinced Ripon made the Adidas jerseys. I actually called Ripon today and asked, and the lady said they had, but I think it's possible she may have been confused between the current Reebok (parent company Adidas) jerseys and the old Adidas of 2001. I have looked closely at the fine details of construction and there's very little that is similar. Even the care tags are different. It's possible that they change stuff on purpose, but I don't know for sure.

So that's what I'm trying to figure out at the moment.