CNN: Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think a lot of people are afraid of what the Bible says, so they like to tinker with Its meaning. Always read it with an open mind and don't swallow what other people say.

So each person is responsible for their own interpretation and translation? Which makes each person their own Pope, sorry but scripture was always read and understood in community.

[polywog999]

So each person is responsible for their own interpretation and translation? Which makes each person their own Pope, sorry but scripture was always read and understood in community.

Why then, are there so many "communities?" Are they all correct?

[PeterMP]

I think you have to be careful how you compare the idea of prosperity in Jesus time. Remember the state sanctions very little. The wasn't a school system like the one we have today. Jesus was well spoken, and educated. You can see this in one of the few stories about Jesus as a child. he was able to engage the priest at the temple, when Marie and Joe forgot him in Jerusalem. Plus that should give you and idea how big Jesus family was.

So is the argument that the God had to go to school to be educated and learn to speak well and as going to school wasn't free his family had to have money?

Do we really believe Earthly schools were required to make God educated?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Why then, are there so many "communities?"

Please do not interpret "communities" as denominations, doing so is a mistake. The point is that you don't read scripture by yourself, you do so in community and the community extends back 2000 years. Can you honestly tell me that the average person picking up their Bible has the cultural, contextual, and linguistic understanding to properly interpret this 2000 year old library of 66 books, 40 authors spanning itself thousands of years of human history? Sorry, but I have 5 years undergrad in Biblical studies, plus another 5 years graduate school in a very good seminary, and even I'm not equipped to read the scripture by myself.

Are they all correct?

On most things...yes. Denominations, actually usually differ on a very few points of interpretation, and in many cases strong arguments can be made for both interpretations. I being a Wesleyan/Arminian differ greatly with my Calvinist brothers and sisters, however even while I believe that they are misunderstanding certain things, I do admit that they can and often times do make a strong case, just as they do regarding the Wesleyan/Arminian tradition.

[AsburySkinsFan]

So is the argument that the God had to go to school to be educated and learn to speak well and as going to school wasn't free his family had to have money?

Well, unless you are making the case that Jesus didn't actually become human, then I guess one would have to say that he did have to go to school, however they didn't go to school like we do; that would be an anachronism (reading our ways into their ways) Jesus was most likely educated by a rabbi and would have been chosen to be educated by that rabbi. Unless of course someone wants to make the argument that Jesus in the manger knew then all the intricacies of heaven and earth, and in that case I'll ask then "how was he human at all?"

Do we really believe Earthly schools were required to make God educated?

God educated...no...the incarnate (God in flesh) human person of Jesus who became human...and lived as we live? Yes. I guess it comes down to the question did Jesus have to be potty trained? IMO, suggesting that Jesus was fully aware from the time of His birth crosses an VERY important line in the fully God/fully Human nature of Christ.

[polywog999]

Please do not interpret "communities" as denominations, doing so is a mistake. The point is that you don't read scripture by yourself, you do so in community and the community extends back 2000 years. Can you honestly tell me that the average person picking up their Bible has the cultural, contextual, and linguistic understanding to properly interpret this 2000 year old library of 66 books, 40 authors spanning itself thousands of years of human history? Sorry, but I have 5 years undergrad in Biblical studies, plus another 5 years graduate school in a very good seminary, and even I'm not equipped to read the scripture by myself.


On most things...yes. Denominations, actually usually differ on a very few points of interpretation, and in many cases strong arguments can be made for both interpretations. I being a Wesleyan/Arminian differ greatly with my Calvinist brothers and sisters, however even while I believe that they are misunderstanding certain things, I do admit that they can and often times do make a strong case, just as they do regarding the Wesleyan/Arminian tradition.

Lets not make this personal, M'Kay?
Show me in the bible where it says I have to be told about the scriptures by someone else.

Well... I'm waiting.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Lets not make this personal, M'Kay?
Show me in the bible where it says I have to be told about the scriptures by someone else.

Well... I'm waiting.

Your type of arrogance in approaching the scriptures is not healthy, to assume that any one of us can read the scriptures on our own and rightly interpret them without the help from the Christian community is dangerous, its how cults are formed. The Bible is not just some novel that you can plop down on the couch and "get" in an afternoon, it a very rich and often times complex tome that is intended to pass the Christian faith down from one generation to the next telling the good news of God's redemptive work throughout history. The thinking that its an "easy read" is absurd.

[polywog999]

Your type of arrogance in approaching the scriptures is not healthy, to assume that any one of us can read the scriptures on our own and rightly interpret them without the help from the Christian community is dangerous, its how cults are formed. The Bible is not just some novel that you can plop down on the couch and "get" in an afternoon, it a very rich and often times complex tome that is intended to pass the Christian faith down from one generation to the next telling the good news of God's redemptive work throughout history. The thinking that its an "easy read" is absurd.

Still waiting for you to show me a verse or something that would indicate otherwise. You are trying to tell me what God said. Perhaps it is you who is being arrogant.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Still waiting for you to show me a verse or something that would indicate otherwise. You are trying to tell me what God said. Perhaps it is you who is being arrogant.

Oh, so you want a verse in the Bible to tell you that its smarter to have more brains looking at passages of 2000 year old manuscripts than a single one. Well, if you feel justified in thinking that you yourself can grasp the complexities of the scripture without the help of community (bearing in mind that the community extends to the Christian authors and commentators who write about and discuss the Bible) well I won't be the one to give you that justification.

So, what is your background that equips you for the task of Biblical translation and interpretation?

[AsburySkinsFan]

BTW, Polywog, how did you even learn about Christianity, the Bible without the Christian community?

[polywog999]

Oh, so you want a verse in the Bible to tell you that its smarter to have more brains looking at passages of 2000 year old manuscripts than a single one. Well, if you feel justified in thinking that you yourself can grasp the complexities of the scripture without the help of community (bearing in mind that the community extends to the Christian authors and commentators who write about and discuss the Bible) well I won't be the one to give you that justification.

So, what is your background that equips you for the task of Biblical translation and interpretation?

I read it. You seem awful stuck on yourself there,buddy. Relax or do I stir some seed of doubt in you? If not, why then are you so upset with an issue that you cannot even point out in scripture?

[Zguy28]

Asbury and Polywog, I think you're both partially wrong. Scripture can and should be studied and read individually, but also we should not forsake or think of ourselves so highly that we think the Holy Spirit has not illuminated other Christians in our community (and in the church catholic) with correct interpretations that will benefit us.

[polywog999]

Asbury and Polywog, I think you're both partially wrong. Scripture can and should be studied and read individually, but also we should not forsake or think of ourselves so highly that we think the Holy Spirit has not illuminated other Christians in our community (and in the church catholic) with correct interpretations that will benefit us.

Imagine that... we all disagree about something!

Also, I never indicated that you could not study with a group. I simply said USE your own mind to decide what is right.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I read it. You seem awful stuck on yourself there,buddy. Relax or do I stir some seed of doubt in you? If not, why then are you so upset with an issue that you cannot even point out in scripture?

Because I see all to often in the church people who brag about their lack of education and flaunt the Christian community and then begin to try and teach others about Christianity only to cause hurt and harm in those lives. We as Christians learn and teach in community, not isolation.

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider how to provoke one another to love and good deeds, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; teach and admonish one another in all wisdom; and with gratitude in your hearts sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God.

1 Timothy 1:2-3 To Timothy, my loyal child in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I urge you, as I did when I was on my way to Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach any different doctrine,

1 Timothy 4:10-11 For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 11 These are the things you must insist on and teach.

2 Timothy 2:1-2 You then, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus; 2 and what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well.

Titus 2:1 But as for you, teach what is consistent with sound doctrine.

1 Timothy 5:4 If a widow has children or grandchildren, they should first learn their religious duty to their own family and make some repayment to their parents; for this is pleasing in God's sight.

[techboy]

For anyone actually interested in the question posed by the article (was Jesus rich?), I'd suggest actually reading the article, then comparing the credentials (and possible conflict of interest) of the guy saying he was, and the scholars (at least one of whom I've heard of and know to be highly qualified and respected) saying he wasn't.

As to the Prosperity Gospel itself, I hate (yes, hate) it for two reasons:

1) Although many of the rank and file (and even some leaders, probably) are sincere, the fact remains that many higher-ups in this movement push it because promising people they'll be rich and happy and fulfilled draws people in and gets them contributing, which in turn fills the coffers of their church or other organization, and of course, they have to be wealthy to show off the blessings of God. That mansion and Rolls are necessary to the ministry.

This can be seen in the ridiculous leaps of logic taken to make the historical Jesus, a day laborer in dirt poor Roman occupied Paelstine, into a wealthy man, because they need him to be so. Jesus historians, of course, laugh at the idea of his being wealthy, though some of his followers definitely were.

Joseph of Arimithea, for instance, was wealthy, and provided the tomb. This is an argument for Jesus' poverty, not his wealth, since if he or his family had money, he wouldn't have needed the donation.

2) Read in context and as a whole, it is imminently clear that God does not promise that this life is supposed to be sunshine and roses. "Take up your cross and follow me" may not be as fun as "The Lord wants a Porsche, and he wants me to drive it for him", but it is far more consistent with both the whole of Scripture and the historical reality of the Christian faith, which is that until Constantine, it was the faith of the destitute and oppressed.

Just look at the lives of the apostles. Paul, for instance, was a Roman citizen, but he hardly lived a life of luxury. Heck, the early church was a commune.

The reason this is so dangerous, though, is that the "prosperity gospel" tells people they'll be rich and successful if they just have enough faith.

What happens when they aren't? Faith can be destroyed by this false message.

How is the "prosperity gospel" any gospel at all to the billions in abject poverty in this world, in underdeveloped nations?