Chalk Talk: Discussion: Player Discipline (The Little Things)

[Ryman of the North]

let's take a look at the NFL. when i think of undisciplined teams i don't think of winners. winners are guys like parcels and belicheck who have complete control. losers are guys like zorn and marvin lewis who let the inmates run the asylum.

these are quick examples, but i think that we should think of examples in the league we're talking about now. you can talk about rugby or baseball or even college football, but in reality the nfl is the nfl.

Going with the NFL, guys like Belichick and Gibbs werent martinets, guys like Tom coughlin are. Belicheat and Gobbs were actually pretty easy going as long as you toed the line.

[KDawg]

let's take a look at the NFL. when i think of undisciplined teams i don't think of winners. winners are guys like parcels and belicheck who have complete control. losers are guys like zorn and marvin lewis who let the inmates run the asylum.

these are quick examples, but i think that we should think of examples in the league we're talking about now. you can talk about rugby or baseball or even college football, but in reality the nfl is the nfl.

This topic isn't JUST about the pros, though.

I have no problem with using pro examples in the thread. This thread was born out of a conversation I had with other coaches and, quite honestly, the entire 92 situation. But the discussion is all encompassing.

[Oldfan]

I think first we need to define terms here so that we are talking about the same thing. Your definition of discipline seems to include dresscodes in the same category as lining up properly and avoiding penalties. I think you're talking about two very different kinds of discipline. On the football field, the coach should be looking for precision. Precision is attained mainly by repetition. I don't think dress codes have any effect at all on a team's execution.

Football coaches have more control on the outcome of a game than other sports. Perhaps that's why football seems to draw more than its fair share of control freaks to the coaching ranks. They make too many rules; they lose their temper; they scream; they treat their players like crap. From what I've read, Mike Shanahan has, over the years, learned to back off the ego-trip. He seems to be striking the right balance now.

Winning a championships requires good players executing intelligent schemes. I think people tend to greatly overrate the psychological factors like discipline, leadership, and so on.

[KDawg]

I think first we need to define terms here so that we are talking about the same thing. Your definition of discipline seems to include dresscodes in the same category as lining up properly and avoiding penalties. I think you're talking about two very different kinds of discipline. On the football field, the coach should be looking for precision. Precision is attained mainly by repetition. I don't think dress codes have any effect at all on a team's execution.

I disagree. I think they in fact have an effect on my team's execution. They all buy into it. It brings them closer together. They buy extra socks with their own money in order to help their teammates. That makes other teammates want to play harder and read up on their playbooks as to not allow their teammates down. Is the carryover huge? No. But there is carryover to the field. It's minimal, but it helps.

Football coaches have more control on the outcome of a game than other sports. Perhaps that's why football seems to draw more than its fair share of control freaks to the coaching ranks. They make too many rules; they lose their temper; they scream; they treat their players like crap. From what I've read, Mike Shanahan has, over the years, learned to back off the ego-trip. He seems to be striking the right balance now.

There is a difference between control freaks and coaches who discipline. I have a great relationship with my guys. Sure I may yell from time to time, but I'm also the first one there to praise them when they do the right things. They understand that. I've had players tell me that I'm tough but I'm also fair. They know that I want their all and if they work hard they have nothing to worry about.

Winning a championships requires good players executing intelligent schemes. I think people tend to greatly overrate the psychological factors like discipline, leadership, and so on.

I do agree with the first sentence. I just think things like discipline play into it a bit more than you do.

[mossomo]

So what say you, ES? Am I full of crap or do you agree. Don't let me down here, I'm looking for some discussion

Remember Norv's team during the 90's. We had talent but no discipline. That fist fight in practice should have foreshadowed all the wins and playoff runs we wiffed b/c of the lack of discipline and resulting foul trouble.

[darrelgreenie]

Miami was allowed to do whatever they wanted on the field, or at least they appeared to.


The bottom line from my stance is that if you have a policy, you stick to it, no matter what. If you waver in your stance, you've just sent a message that you aren't going to live up to your word. And nothing destroys a team faster.

If a policy is outlined from the jump, you cannot back down from it. It must be followed through or you risk losing your team. Sure, they'll probably still like you if they liked you to begin with, but that "fear" of upsetting Coach is now gone.

I think this is the same throughout all levels of the sport. From Pop Warner, to Modified, to JV, to Varsity to Collegiate Ball and to the Pros. Sure, there are different levels of discipline, but the most disciplined teams are always tough to beat.

And I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. People could probably still argue, effectively, that those Miami Hurricanes had no discipline, but the counter argument will always be there as well.

Its the teams that do all of these little things that know how to line up, are not highly penalized and are aware of what needs to be done on a week to week basis to win football games.

So what say you, ES? Am I full of crap or do you agree. Don't let me down here, I'm looking for some discussion

I think you need to separate on field/from off discipline.
I'm not sure if i believe that Jimmy Johnson's Canes were undisciplined on the field.
You just can't play defense that way but i digress.

Imo an undisciplined(on the field) team will struggle to reach their potential.
They may still win if the have clearly vastly superior talent but i also think its takes structure to bring out talent.

Plenty of teams have squandered talent (easy example pre-Bill Walsh Steve Young)

But at the same time i don't think you need to have a whole slew of policies and rules to have discipline.

[Oldfan]

...I just think things like discipline play into it a bit more than you do.

Most things that go wrong on the football field can be explained simply. I think we should prefer those explanations to vague, psychological explanations.

For example, we often hear that highly penalized teams are undisciplined. Yet, it seems to me that most penalties are the result of an over-matched player trying to cheat to get an edge on his opponent. So, the highly penalized team is blamed on the coach for lack of discipline when we should be questioning the quality of his players.

[KDawg]

Most things that go wrong on the football field can be explained simply. I think we should prefer those explanations to vague, psychological explanations.

For example, we often hear that highly penalized teams are undisciplined. Yet, it seems to me that most penalties are the result of an over-matched player trying to cheat to get an edge on his opponent. So, the highly penalized team is blamed on the coach for lack of discipline when we should be questioning the quality of his players.

I don't recall ever saying any such thing, although you seem to imply that this is my stance.

I never implied that the off field discipline stuff has a direct carryover to penalties. A player jumping offsides is just that... A player jumping offsides. I explained that I think the carry over is more towards playbook/camaraderie type situations, not necessarily penalties.

I don't disagree with the above quote in the least, actually.

EDIT: In the OP I say something along the lines of "It's these little things that get teams to... not be highly penalized"

I stick by that statement. It's the little things... But in that case it's not necessarily off the field little things...

[Oldfan]

I don't recall ever saying any such thing, although you seem to imply that this is my stance.

No, I'm not implying anything like that.

[Skin'Em84]

Discipline is a key contributor to hustle, chemistry and morale. These three things are underrated immesnly in the game. Ryman's example is key; they are all self-disciplined. They know what to do to win, how to prepare to win, and how to work as a team. They may mesh differently than other teams, but they mesh, and win because of it.
Some teams need a Tom Coughlin, some need a Gibbs. The goal is to find the right, disciplined players who fit your coaches philosophy and can work together.

[KDawg]

Discipline is a key contributor to hustle, chemistry and morale. These three things are underrated immesnly in the game. Ryman's example is key; they are all self-disciplined. They know what to do to win, how to prepare to win, and how to work as a team. They may mesh differently than other teams, but they mesh, and win because of it.
Some teams need a Tom Coughlin, some need a Gibbs. The goal is to find the right, disciplined players who fit your coaches philosophy and can work together.

I agree with this... So let's spin this thread in this direction...

You're the coach. You coach HS football...

Do you adapt your disciplinary techniques to the kids or do you get them to fit yours?

I meet somewhere in the middle, personally. But that's an interesting question. You can't pick new kids unless at a private school...

[ciresolstice]

You have to have a feel for your team, the chemistry, the leaders, and what players respect or respond to..that bond and relationship happens over time. All children don't respond well to a certain form of discipline or punishment...grown people are the same way to a degree. With all of that said, discipline is necessary and should be employed...stand firm, respect goes both ways, if a few can't get with it or don't respond, find a common ground or they can play on another team.