The Official Washington Wizards Thread

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Never underestimate Cowherd's stupidity.

But in regards to the part I quoted, put the debate this way:

Durant might go down as the best combo 2/3 ever, second best perimeter scorer ever.

Wall has the ability to go down as the best pure point guard ever.
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Now thinking about it like that, which one would you rather take? I think positional importance has to figure strongly into the equation. Perimeter scorers who can give you 24+ points a game are a dime a dozen. There's never been another player like Durant before, but you can get a guy who'll give you close production nearly every single year. PG and C are the two most valuable positions you can build around and there are swarms of good 2s and 3s in the league right now. If I were building a team with the ability to choose from every player in NBA history, my first pick would be Kareem and not Jordan or Bird.

Point guards with no weaknesses and freakish athletic gifts (speed, length) like Wall are extremely rare. Also factor in Wall's youth, precociousness, and leadership skills. He's captaining a team as a 20 year old rookie, two years removed from high school. I think he's the most desirable building block in the league outside of Howard.

I get what you're saying. And I agree to an extent. But we're just gonna disagree on the players. I think you might be making what I perceive to be a mistake that I see a lot of basketball fans make. They look at the stats and the positions and the skill set but they don't look at the individual. I'm talking heart, drive, desire, leadership, all of that.

I'm taking Jordan over Kareem. That's just how I feel. He was a dominate player but he also had that drive. You take away Oscar Robertson and Magic from Kareem does he have any championships? Who would you take away from Jordan's teams that would deny MJ his? Scottie? Ehhh. I think they could've found someone to fill that spot. They might not have won 6 or 72 but I think MJ still gets rings.

I think Durant, ultimately, is going to be on that level.

And fwiw, Wall is 20 and two years removed from high school but Durant is just 22 and four years removed. I don't think that's a big enough of a difference to really even mention. And Durant is a leader too. Lead a team from Oklahoma City that played the eventual NBA champs tough for six games. Then he lead the US to their first FIBA gold medal since '94. He put that team on his back and dominated the entire world.

Also, for what Durant gives you skills wise, who is a step below that right now? Are they closer to Durant than Chris Paul or Rondo or whoever is going to be (god willing) to John Wall.

But still, if you haven't noticed, I'm absolutely giddy over Wall, The only person I take over him right now is Durant. I'd take him over Howard.


I didn't mean to ignore you before. Friday/Saturday are my big money workdays. I love your draft stuff in the Stadium and it was bugging me that I hadn't responded yet.

[Hubbs]

I think the jury's still out on McGee. Yeah, the only shot he can hit is a dunk, but he can dunk really well, and he can also block shots better than anybody except Dwight Howard (hat tip to GACOLB for the comparison).

He's got his flaws. Who doesn't? Let's maximize his strengths and try to compensate for his flaws.

[endzone_dave]

Look at the +/- of the bench last night. The starters actually did well but the bench was horrible.

[fullnelson9999]

For those who didn't see the end of the first half...

[stevemcqueen1]

I get what you're saying. And I agree to an extent. But we're just gonna disagree on the players. I think you might be making what I perceive to be a mistake that I see a lot of basketball fans make. They look at the stats and the positions and the skill set but they don't look at the individual. I'm talking heart, drive, desire, leadership, all of that.

Wall has all of that though. I think he's even more firey than Durant is. Durant had a bit of a slow start as a rookie and Wall comes in producing at a high level (top 5 in steals/assists) when he hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet. Wall's a smart guy--he says all of the right things, has a great attitude, and has a great understanding of the game already. He shocks me with how precocious he is. He was born to play this game.

I love Durant. I love his game and he's an awesome guy--Redskins fan, humble, likeable. Rare as he is, I don't think he's as rare an individual as Wall. He started slower, seems more shy and less vocal. And his position hurts him in regard to how rare he is. Good wing players come out every single draft. Take this year for instance--Harrison Barnes is just as skilled as Durant was as a college freshman. Perry Jones is even more of an athletic freak than Durant (faster, taller, similar reach, stronger). Neither are quite the complete package that Durant is, and these guys may not pan out, but they illustrate that the league is crowded with guys in the 6'7-6'9 range and will always be.

I'm taking Jordan over Kareem. That's just how I feel. He was a dominate player but he also had that drive. You take away Oscar Robertson and Magic from Kareem does he have any championships? Who would you take away from Jordan's teams that would deny MJ his? Scottie? Ehhh. I think they could've found someone to fill that spot. They might not have won 6 or 72 but I think MJ still gets rings.

I disagree here. I think it's Robertson who never would have won a ring without Kareem, not the other way around. Robertson spent a decade in futility with the Royals, then he got one in his first shot with Kareem. Kareem was a champion going back to his UCLA days where he won one each of his three seasons. Magic was also the second banana on those Lakers teams behind Kareem, probably up until the very end when Kareem was about 40. I'd say the torch wasn't really passed until the '86 season.

No player has ever consistently won on his own. Say what you want about Jordan's determination and leadership, but he didn't win anything until he had Pippen. He might have gotten a ring in a down year, but that's about as far as I think he'd go. The greatest winners in NBA history have always needed another great to accompany them. But both Jordan and Kareem were the clear best players on their team while they were winning.

Then stack their achievements up side by side, they look about the same--6 time champion, 6 time MVP (Jordan had 5), Kareem was a 19 time all-star and 11 time NBA all-defensive team player so on longevity he thumps Jordan. On positional value, Kareem wins by a wide margin.

Center and PG are your quarterback positions. Their value can't be overstated. To put it in football terms, I'd look at it this way. Jordan is the Jerry Rice of basketball. Arguably the greatest individual player in the history of the sport, head and shoulders better than anyone else who's ever played his position. Kareem is the Joe Montana of Basketball. If you're trying to build a championship team, you take Montana over Rice.

Just for fun, Bill Russell is the Otto Graham. Robertson is the Dan Marino. Stockton is the Steve Young. LeBron will go down as the Jim Brown (unprecedented physical freak of nature at his position).

And fwiw, Wall is 20 and two years removed from high school but Durant is just 22 and four years removed. I don't think that's a big enough of a difference to really even mention. And Durant is a leader too. Lead a team from Oklahoma City that played the eventual NBA champs tough for six games. Then he lead the US to their first FIBA gold medal since '94. He put that team on his back and dominated the entire world.

You've got a point about the age. But OKC wasn't good until last year and Durant has a better supporting cast around him now than Wall will have for the forseeable future. And Durant didn't single handedly win us that FIBA championship. He was playing along side the brightest young stars in the NBA-Rose, Evans, Gordon, Curry, etc. And we can be gracious to the competition all we want, our second stringers on the world team own a massive talent advantage over every other country's A side, especially since most of the best foreign players in the world sat this tourney out. Durant was clearly the best player on our team. But he wasn't the only one who got us there.

Also, for what Durant gives you skills wise, who is a step below that right now? Are they closer to Durant than Chris Paul or Rondo or whoever is going to be (god willing) to John Wall.

There are more elite wing players in the NBA than there are elite PGs. Paul and Rondo are great and each bring some of the skills to the table that Wall will eventually have (length and ability to play above the rim for Paul, shooting for Rondo). But neither are the complete package like Wall. I also think you could add Rose and Deron Williams into the category with Wall to make a big five. A solid second tier of true PGs would be Curry, Harris, Westbrook, Conley, and maybe Aaron Brooks. Evans is a combo guard and not a true PG, on our team he would be a wing. (I also left out Nash, Kidd, Miller, and Parker because they'll all retire within the next few years).

For wing players, I think LeBron is actually more talented than Durant is. Following those two, I don't see a big dropoff to Carmelo, Kobe, and Wade. That's your big 5. After them, you've got a strong second tier of Rudy Gay, Monta Ellis, Paul Pierce, Brandon Roy, Joe Johnson, Danny Granger, and Gerald Wallace. Give me Wall and any one of those second tier wing players, and I think you've got a better team on your hands than Durant and a second tier PG provided the rest of the supporting cast is identical.

But still, if you haven't noticed, I'm absolutely giddy over Wall, The only person I take over him right now is Durant. I'd take him over Howard.

Howard has his weaknesses, namely shooting. But I think he alters your opponent's game plan more than anyone else in the league. How many teams in the league can single guard him? I think the Celtics are the only one. And even if you do, he'll still get decent numbers and play dominant defense. Only a handful of guys in the league can play above the rim like him. That said, I think Javale McGee is one of them. If he could ever put it all together, man he'd be good.

I didn't mean to ignore you before. Friday/Saturday are my big money workdays. I love your draft stuff in the Stadium and it was bugging me that I hadn't responded yet.

Haha, no it's all good. Thanks for the kind words. I really enjoy reading your opinions about the Wizards and I think you bring a lot of knowledge to the table.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

I'm taking Jordan over Kareem. That's just how I feel. He was a dominate player but he also had that drive. You take away Oscar Robertson and Magic from Kareem does he have any championships?

Oscar wasn't in his prime when the Bucks won the title.

Kareem was the dominant player on that team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/1971.html

[stevemcqueen1]

I think the jury's still out on McGee. Yeah, the only shot he can hit is a dunk, but he can dunk really well, and he can also block shots better than anybody except Dwight Howard (hat tip to GACOLB for the comparison).

He's got his flaws. Who doesn't? Let's maximize his strengths and try to compensate for his flaws.

McGee is a small forward in a center's body. In terms of his ability to block shots and grab defensive boards, he's top five in the league (if he gave consistent effort). Howard is probably the only other seven footer with better athletic ability. Maybe Amare Stoudemire does, although he's not much of a defender either. With better focus and mental discipline, I think McGee could grow into an elite defender. He's still a bit skinny to be a tough low post presence, but he's got the feet and length to stifle.

Offensively, McGee strikes me as what we in tennis call a "shot artist." He's only happy when he gets to get creative with his shots in transition. He wants to show off his athleticism and throw down dunks and he gets bored and loses focus when he can't do this. Developing a post game is very hard and it takes years to do. A lot of players never do it. But McGee needs to show the willingness and work ethic to get there and I'm not sure he has so far.

The thing to keep in mind with McGee is that he's only 22. Center has the steepest learning curve and McGee still has plenty of time to prove himself. But damned if he doesn't do enough stupid things to make you think he'll never figure it all out.

Speaking of centers, check out this Andre Drummond kid from New York. He's 17 and already in the 6'10 - 260 lb. range with the likelihood of ending up well over 7'. He runs like Amare Stoudemire too. He looks like the next big thing.

[Hubbs]

For those who didn't see the end of the first half...

I know it didn't count, but that was ****ing epic. He's so damn fast.

Oh, and also, Steve (different post), that's exactly why I'm willing to wait on McGee. I think he's going to turn into a beast in time.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Oscar wasn't in his prime when the Bucks won the title.

Kareem was the dominant player on that team.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/1971.html

They don't win without Robertson. I never said that he was the most dominant player. The Bucks dominate the next two years (but fail to win the championship.) Then Oscar retires and with Kareem still on the team, in his prime, the Bucks finish in last place.

I think my point still stands. You take away Oscar from that team, Kareem doesn't win the title with the Bucks. You take away Magic from the Lakers, Kareem doesn't win titles there. Who do you take away from Jordan that would've prevented him from winning a title?


I'm about to eat, but I got you at some point SteveM.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

stevemcqueen, you're my hero.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

They don't win without Robertson. I never said that he was the most dominant player. The Bucks dominate the next two years (but fail to win the championship.) Then Oscar retires and with Kareem still on the team, in his prime, the Bucks finish in last place.

I think my point still stands. You take away Oscar from that team, Kareem doesn't win the title with the Bucks. You take away Magic from the Lakers, Kareem doesn't win titles there. Who do you take away from Jordan that would've prevented him from winning a title?

Believe it or not, Scottie Pippen.

[stevemcqueen1]

Believe it or not, Scottie Pippen.

Yeah that's what the 80's taught us. Jordan could win MVPs but he couldn't unseat the Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics until he had another top 50 all time sidekick to help him out. That's not to take anything away from him. No great player has ever been able to consistently win without another Hall of Famer or top 50 player to work with. Or at least they've needed a supporting cast involving multiple current all-stars like Tim Duncan's or 2000's Detroit.

Bird had McHale, Parrish, and Walton
Kareem had Magic and Worthy
Havlicek had Cowens, Russell, and Sam Reed
Dr. J had Moses Malone
Hakeem had Drexler
Isiah had Dumars
Chamberlain had Jerry West, Hal Greer, Elgin Baylor, and Billy Cunningham
Shaq had Kobe and Wade

That's about all I can think of. It seems that all great teams require multiple great players, or at least 4 or 5 very good players. In that regard, I think it's misleading to use championships as a measure of individual success or else Bill Russell would look like the greatest in NBA history. If you focus on just individual achievements, I think Kareem's are the most impressive in the history of the league and I think he did a lot to change the nature of both his position and the sport back in the time when it was still kind of a niche league. Kareem was one of the main faces that brought the game into the mainstream--not to take anything away from Chamberlain, but I don't think he had the same kind of lasting imprint on the sport.

And Wilt's star turn in the second Conan, awesome though it was, wasn't as awesome as Kareem's cameo in Airplane.

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

Click on the link to read the rest.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110704095.html

Wizards are easing Gilbert Arenas back in

Arenas has come off the bench to score 31 points through his first two games but he is also attempting to regain his rhythm - with the game and his new teammates - and lose the nearly 10 pounds he said he gained while being unable to run. He is also trying to find a comfortable role in an offense that no longer is centered on his talents.

"We're trying. It's tough when a guy misses so much time, especially a guy like Gilbert, where almost everything used to be run around him. It's just a big adjustment," Kirk Hinrich said. "I don't know if I necessarily notice the rust; it's a matter of getting him acclimated with the group. We need him, we need his scoring and we all have to make a conscious effort to make him a big part of what we do down there."

Although he has missed some time, Arenas has still proven to be an effective shot maker, especially in the fourth quarters, when he has scored a combined 22 points and shot 8 for 15. But Saunders said he noticed that Arenas turned down opportunities he should've taken. "I just don't want to seem like I'm shooting too much," Arenas said. "I didn't want take away from what the team has been doing."

Arenas laughed when asked how he would adjust to playing off the ball after being a point guard throughout his career. "Point guard? I was a shooting guard for a while," he said. "It's no difference. I was used to catching and shooting, but I don't get as tired and I don't turn the ball over."

Wall collected his ninth and 10th assists connecting with Arenas in the fourth quarter on Saturday. He found him open for an 18-foot jumper that put the Wizards ahead 88-85 and also for a late three-pointer. The two hooked up for a highlight when Wall stole the ball from Mo Williams and flipped a no-look pass to Arenas, who found Andray Blatche cutting to the hoop for a two-handed dunk.

The ability for Wall and Arenas to mesh is a question that will be asked all season, but it hasn't been a concern for them. "It's not a big deal for us. He's trying to help us win. I don't think it's a challenge at all. Gil can score in various ways," Wall said. "I think he's getting his rhythm back. He feels he needs to start driving more, that's going to get him to get his legs back underneath and get him used to playing with us again."

[No Excuses]

Gil will get his game back. Took him a while last year as well.

This team can still win games or at least be somewhat competitive most nights but it starts with Flip trusting McGee. As dumb as McGee is, he is still 100000000x better than Yi and Armstrong. Yi is grabbing a total of TWO rebounds and averaging 20 MPG. He is so ****ing soft, it's disgraceful that he's the first big man of the bench.

[RichmondRedskin88]

Did we ever try out Jon Scheyer? I remember him being pretty good for Duke. I thought he could be pretty good in the NBA. He had great 3 point ability.