The Official Washington Wizards Thread

[Destino]

SM How can you say a guy that can score in the post, rebound, and hit shots from seemingly anywhere lacks skills? If you'd be rid of him for Williams, an undersized PF that himself admitted he was a better fit for SF in the NBA, I don't know what to tell you.

Remember this is Kevin Love, year 4. He's not done getting good yet.

[No Excuses]

Derrick Williams will most likely pan out to be a better version of Antawn Jamison. Which isn't necessarily bad because Jamison was a quality player. Or he might end up like Jamison as a SF/PF tweener who never has a defined position in the NBA.

People had similar doubts about Love, but he's proven them wrong. The OJ Mayo/Kevin Love swap was criticized HEAVILY on draft night. Love has surpassed expectations and has developed an extremely rare skill set. It makes no sense that someone who shoots the 3 as well as him also pulls in 5 offensive boards a game. Has a player with unlimited range ever been as dominant of a rebounder?

[stevemcqueen1]

This is ridiculous and you know it.

Yes, let us go out and factory produce a freak of nature like LeBron. If you can't, you must not be good enough to be a champion.

You don't have to have a LeBron James to beat the Heat. But you probably need to have a roster like them--top five in the NBA in both scoring and defense.

Rubio/Love TWolves might be a top five offense in the NBA one day. But those two will always be a defensive liability and their teams will probably never be good defensively.

Wait, are you telling me that the mighty Heat couldn't beat a one star man team with the lead star being someone who people called:

The Heat were in year one of their construction, certainly the worst year of their window with Wade, LeBron, and Bosh (probably by a large margin). Outside of Wade, LeBron, and Bosh, that roster was scotch taped together.

And even still they steamrolled their way to the Finals and were the finest of hairs away from winning the championship. It took arguably the most transcendent playoff performance by a HoF 7 footer in the modern era to beat them, plus a blue moon coming together of the rest of the roster with elite bench scoring, great coaching, and great team defense to eke out the series win.

Today? As the Heat are getting comfortable, rounding into form and filling in the missing pieces along the way? There isn't a chance in hell that Mavs team beats them. I'm not sure anyone in the league can beat them right now.

That is the same exact thing people said about Dirk.

Not true. Ever since Dirk broke out, he's always been unguardable and able to get his shot on any one.

Sorry Steve, but you are way off base on this one. I can't further continue to debate about this if you discredit a player who pulls down 15+ rebounds and puts up 20+ points night in and night out, as someone who is just not an 'elite player'. If 26 and 15 is not elite, then the entire NBA should just retire. If you are holding his record against him, then you better have the same criticisms for Wall.

You're basing your assessment off of only numbers and not the skills.

I don't understand what you're point is in trying to compare Wall and Love. They couldn't possibly be more different.

Are you comparing them based on record? What's to compare? Love is in his fourth year and Wall is in his second. He's played three times as many games as Wall.

As far as potential goes, Wall's is much higher than Love's and he falls more in the Derrick Rose, potential MVP candidate range. Wall is arguably the best physical specimen at his position in the league while Love is average to below average physically at best. Wall has no limitations that he can't fix with time and reps. If he reaches his potential he can win any PG matchup in the league and defend positions bigger than his.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Vesely will definitely never be a good #1 option. He's a comically bad shooter and has no post game. He can't create offense for himself because his handles are what you'd expect from a 6'11 dude. He has no offense beyond dunks and hustle points. Maybe he gets a post game one day but how long might that take? When you're such a bad shooter with poor touch, it's unrealistic to think you'll ever develop the consistency to be a 17+ PPG scorer in the NBA. I think Vesely is an offensive dead end when offense from our SF/PF is our biggest short and long term need by far.

I disagree. His form isn't broken and he has range out to 3 point land. We see poor shooters develop a decent mid-range game from scratch - guys like KG and Jermaine O'Neal weren't great jumpshooters as rookies but they became good at it later. He was not a horrible shooter for Partizan, just a below-average one. As for his handles, he'll never be much more than average in terms of handles, but he has a great first step and he only needs one or two go-to moves to be effective.

Best case scenario for Vesely is that he's Andre Kirilenko in five years. We can't afford to wait that long for him and that's not all that great a payoff anyway.

I hope you don't remember how good Andrei Kirilenko was when he was healthy and in his prime. And you're saying Ves can be a 6'11 240 lb version of him? I.e, able to match up with 5s as well as 3s? And is a better finisher at the basket than Kirilenko could have dreamed of?

Bismack was too short to be a Center and thus a reach at 6, he's got even less offensive upside than Vesely, and offered little in the way of an upgrade over Seraphin.

I wanted Bismack. He's a rich man's Seraphin if anything - more NBA ready physically, much better rebounder, supposedly great BBall IQ, insanely long (protip: for big men, length is far, far more important than height - this is why guys like Big Ben and DeJuan Blair succeed, because they have insane standing reach)

Don't trade big for small unless the big is some scrub like Kwame Brown. McGee is an upper echelon starting center right now, with the likelihood of getting better.

I agree, he looks amazing, but we've seen this movie with Blatche. Blatche looked like a SUPERSTAR in that 30 minute stretch after Jamison was traded. 24/9/4 with the second best player on the team being Nick Young. Javale McGee has maturity and work ethic issues the same as Blatche (maybe to a lesser extent) so I'm still worried that it's fools gold.

McGee is also a better fit for us than Drummond because he is approaching finished product status. McGee will be Tyson Chandler by the time he's 26. You can clearly win a championship with a center like that. Most teams are doing far worse at the position. McGee's window is the same as John's, which is important.

I don't think he'll ever have the basketball IQ to be a Tyson Chandler. Chandler doesn't make an impact because he's athletic, but because he's fundamentally sound and is tough.

The problem with Drummond is that he is his age. No well developed offensive game, has a reputation as a tentative scorer who defers, by all accounts, his one great skill is his passing--which we don't need in a big, we need a go to scorer. His appeal is his freakish body, fantastic runner for a legit seven footer who might top out around 7'2+ with a powerful build, carries 280 pounds well.

If he follows Dwight's trajectory, this isn't a concern. Dwight was in the playoffs by year 3 with a horrendous team around him. If Drummond is even close to Dwight on both ends of the court (Dwight was a 17/12 guy at the time, nowhere near a go-to option), then we're fine. And if Wall is a truly special player, Drummond + Wall should be a playoff team at worst.

Chris Singleton is not a good starting SF on a contender, particularly not one with such a terrible 4.

Chris Singleton has a potential to be the perfect SF for a contending team, in the mold of Shawn Marion or Shane Battier or Bruce Bowen or Tayshaun Prince. Except he might be better than all of them when it's all said and done. He probably doesn't have the insane B-Ball IQ of Battier, or Marions insane athleticism, but he should be a top 5 perimeter defender with a decent 3 point shot. You need starters who are willing to defer offensively, otherwise you don't have enough balls to go around.

I think our best (realistic) bet at keeping Wall is to trade for DeMarcus Cousins. Their windows are properly aligned, they're fast friends that love playing together, their skills perfectly compliment each other, and they could form the classic PG + Big pairing off of which you can build a contender.

Absolutely. ****ing. NOT. No. Not in a million years. I wouldn't trade Andray Blatche for DeMarcus Cousins. DeMarcus is a cancer in the Blatche mold, yet worse. He's lazy, he has a horrible attitude, he's floor-bound, he's a bad defender, he is absurdly inefficient, especially for a center - the only thing he does well is rebounding.

I'd try and get him for Javale straight up

Rookie Javale > Cousins now. Cousins is bad. Really bad. Well, Cousins is a strong rebounder, but the guy is incredibly inefficient as a scorer, and is a black hole despite being a good passer.

Or better still, why isn't OKC calling up Orlando and saying here's Westbrook and Perkins and maybe even either Ibaka or Harden for Dwight?

I'd offer Westbrook OR Harden, Ibaka and prospects for Dwight. I wouldn't trade Westbrook AND Harden, Harden is a 20/5/5 player right now with an utterly insane TS%. If Orlando can't take that, well, boo on them. I'd also see if I could get back Ryan Anderson.

That's the team that will beat the Heat and get me my consecutive championships for the forseeable future--we'd have the best chance to make a dynasty since Kobe and Shaq killed the golden goose in LA with their personal beef.

Just saying, Kobe and Shaq probably weren't winning any more titles after 04. Shaq was getting older, and the supporting cast was an absolute nightmare because of the weight of their contracts. The team Shaq took to the finals was much deeper than the one in 04 imo.

The problem was that they made the wrong trade - they should have traded Shaq to the Grizzlies for Gasol, Battier and picks.

[RonArtest15]

Yes, Dirk can shoot over everyone....but there is no one better in the NBA at getting second-chance shots than Kevin Love due to his IQ and positioning. And because he can do that better than anyone else in the league, he presents a problem to whoever is defending him. On top of it all (and like I said before), due to the fact he can stretch the floor with his 3pt shooting, he's a matchup nightmare. You don't have to just worry about containing him in the post. He shot 41% last year from 3 and is up to 42% this year. I don't get the Love slander LOL....And when exactly did Dirk become a "quality defender?" When he as 31-32 years old? He's got close to 10 years on Love, and with the amount of work that Love puts into his game, that aspect will improve as well. I think he's the best 4 by a WIDE margin in the NBA right now, and I think it's absolutely insane that you believe that the T-Wolves brass holds Derrick Williams in higher regard.

[skinfan2k]

haha which 4's are actually longer than him and can actually play some defense lol?

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

As for Kevin Love, I agree that Love is nowhere near a championship level #1 option. The problem with Love is what happens once he gets in the playoffs - will he keep opposing bigs from going off defensively? Will he get his numbers against elite defenders? Will he not be a defensive liability because of his height and lack of length? Those are the questions you have to ask with Love.

If he gets to the playoffs and he puts up 26/11 against elite competition, then you can surround him and Rubio with big, long, strong defenders and a great defensvie C and have hope. But if he can't? Then forget it.

[No Excuses]

I think it's absolutely insane.

This is all you need to describe it. I cannot understand the muddled reasoning that leads someone to believe that a player who scores at excellent efficiency and puts up big numbers night in and night out, is somehow not physically adequate for his position.

I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of Ernie Grunfeld's who look at nothing but physical ability and potential and not at actual on the court production.

As far as potential goes, Wall's is much higher than Love's and he falls more in the Derrick Rose, potential MVP candidate range. Wall is arguably the best physical specimen at his position in the league while Love is average to below average physically at best. Wall has no limitations that he can't fix with time and reps. If he reaches his potential he can win any PG matchup in the league and defend positions bigger than his.

Kevin Love is already the best at his position. John Wall may be during his 4th season as well, he may not. There is a lot of over hyping of Wall, and it seems to me the same level of respect is not being given to some other great players in the league.

You can't explain how a player who is below average physically at best can go off for 25 and 15 consistently, have the first 30 and 30 game since Moses Malone and be the unanimously best at his position by his fourth season. This is incredibly ridiculous logic. Kevin Love is a very good athlete who is perhaps the smartest player at his position and all of NBA.

[RonArtest15]

As for Kevin Love, I agree that Love is nowhere near a championship level #1 option. The problem with Love is what happens once he gets in the playoffs - will he keep opposing bigs from going off defensively? Will he get his numbers against elite defenders? Will he not be a defensive liability because of his height and lack of length? Those are the questions you have to ask with Love.

If he gets to the playoffs and he puts up 26/11 against elite competition, then you can surround him and Rubio with big, long, strong defenders and a great defensvie C and have hope. But if he can't? Then forget it.

They are good questions, but they're all based off of hypotheticals. He's done his thing in the regular season and I'll be more than curious to see how he performs in the playoffs.

Another thing, Dirk's defensive liabilities were very well hidden due to the overall strong defense that Chandler/Marion supported him with. It's not fair to Love to single him out like this when Dirk didn't do everything on his own. Minnesota needs pieces to the puzzle. A trade of Derrick WIlliams will bring those in. You give Love an excellent defensive minded 5/3, you'll see him continue to thrive.

It's like Zach Randolph in Memphis. Look at the success he had with the excellent team defense he had around him. Z-Bo couldn't stop a period in a tampon factory, but those liabilities (like Dirk's) were masked due to the overall team strength.

[shuler74]

The unibrow is the answer for the wiz....book it!

[darrelgreenie]

Larry Brown.

[stevemcqueen1]

SM How can you say a guy that can score in the post, rebound, and hit shots from seemingly anywhere lacks skills? If you'd be rid of him for Williams, an undersized PF that himself admitted he was a better fit for SF in the NBA, I don't know what to tell you.

Remember this is Kevin Love, year 4. He's not done getting good yet.

DW is an undersized PF? If he is, then Love definitely is. He's as tall as Kevin Love is and longer, weighs only five pounds less than Love and has less body fat %. His reach is actually better than Blake Griffin's. Granted, he's certainly not the leaper Griffin is. But he's also well above average for the position and a better, more coordinated athlete and leaper than Love.

We're less than ten games into DW's career. He figures to be a very significant part of their future. If they're planning to play him at SF long term, I think that's a mistake because I question his foot speed. He's slow to match up with the average 3 but if you put him at 4 he can run circles around most 4s with how agile he is and how good his bounce is. I think he's got the abillity to run a Blake Griffin-like role in his offense as the mobile PF with range and fits the mold of the PF of the future.

DW was the dominant college player last season, I think people are underestimating how good he can be. Not to mention he's the perfect PF compliment to a guy like Rubio and their windows are the same.

I think it makes sense for Minnesota to trade both Love and Beasley to bring in a piece that compliments a solid young core in Johnson, Rubio, and Williams--preferably a big time scoring 2 or a long 5. Minny has a log jam of combo forwards and are wasting Johnson at the 2 where he's not suited.

They should try and get Tyreke Evans and/or DeMarcus Cousins from the Kings for some of their extra forwards and even out the distribution of talent on their roster.

While normally I would agree with you about a 4th year player, Love is near his ceiling right now. How much more skilled can he become? He'll never be anything other than a below average athlete for the position. Athletically, he's definitely not a stiff, but he's not quick or agile and he's not a great leaper.

[stevemcqueen1]

Kevin Love is already the best at his position. John Wall may be during his 4th season as well, he may not. There is a lot of over hyping of Wall, and it seems to me the same level of respect is not being given to some other great players in the league.

You can't explain how a player who is below average physically at best can go off for 25 and 15 consistently, have the first 30 and 30 game since Moses Malone and be the unanimously best at his position by his fourth season. This is incredibly ridiculous logic. Kevin Love is a very good athlete who is perhaps the smartest player at his position and all of NBA.

It's clear you're a fan of him, but you're being absolutely ridiculous calling him the unanimous best PF in the league. At this very moment? Based on what? His numbers through seven games this season? LOL! I'd take Blake Griffin over him every time and Love has nothing on the KGs and Dirks of the world and hasn't come close to proving he's the kind of player like them that can carry a team into the postseason year in and year out. He's not even better than Amare, who is usually an indifferent defender, but can play lockdown defense when he wants to. He wouldn't even be close to Tim Duncan if Duncan wasn't 100 years old. Is he even better than LaMarcus Aldridge?

Love might be the best PF in the league for a fantasy basketball team. But if you want to actually win a championship, Chris Bosh is a better option... Hell Pau Gasol is a better option and I don't think he's the player he was at this point a year ago.

Your argument is entirely volume stat based and utterly prisoner of the moment.

[No Excuses]

Larry Brown.

No, no and no. He is done as an NBA coach.

[darrelgreenie]

No, no and no. He is done as an NBA coach.

Why?

I have no idea if Larry Brown does or doesn't want to coach again.
But if he did who would be a better coach to turn a team around?