The Official Washington Wizards Thread

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Because the strength demonstrated doing bench press reps has nothing to do with finishing at the rim. If you grab a ball and try to lift it while someone swats or grabs your arms you aren't using your chest. Keeping your body stable through contact isn't accomplish by large pectoral muscles. Now if they wanted to make sure you could launch a heck of a chest pass...

Lol, thanks for posting this. I really didn't want to write all that out on the touchscreen phone but his post/point was really bothering me.

---------- Post added June-12th-2012 at 09:53 PM ----------

And Samuels, I think I agree with you on Barnes > MKG. As time goes on, the less I'm feeling MKG.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Combine 3/4 Sprint had some interesting results. Barnes beat every lottery pick that ran but check out TRob and MKG out running the super athlete PJ3 and all of the shooting guards.

Barnes 3.16
TRob 3.17
MKG 3.18
PJ3 3.19
J Lamb 3.25
Beal 3.28
Rivers 3.32
Drummond 3.39
Zeller 3.40
Sullinger 3.81

all straight line sprints right? Barnes problem is he has no wiggle. His hips are stiff, and its why he has trouble beating guys off the dribble and is gonna have issues guarding guys.

[Skins199021]

I want either Beal or Barnes at number 3

MKG is not what we need, we need a permiter shooter to spread the floor. I would prefer Barnes because I think he is gonna be a beast and the SF position just seems harder to fill.

Really wish we could get that 10 pick and go Barnes and Rivers/Lamb

[Skin'emAlive]

Ive wanted Barnes since last year. What do we do with another project player that cant shoot? Who does wall kick the ball out to right now? Rashard Lewis?

[Thinking Skins]

[/COLOR]And Samuels, I think I agree with you on Barnes > MKG. As time goes on, the less I'm feeling MKG.

I don't know if I agree with this. Or at least I wonder why the sudden change. I've been a Barnes fan since 2010 when he picked up his game, but he definitely took a step back this year. Are we now superimpressed by his numbers and measurables that we're going to ignore what he did in games? I'm not anti-Barnes, in fact I think he's a really safe pick, but I wonder if falling in love with Barnes is just us trying to fill a need and not really picking the best player available.

---------- Post added June-13th-2012 at 06:05 AM ----------

Ive wanted Barnes since last year. What do we do with another project player that cant shoot? Who does wall kick the ball out to right now? Rashard Lewis?

We can get players to stretch the floor. What I want are guys that we can build a team around. Right now we've got a bunch of guys who should be riding the bench as starters. Shoot, I'd extend Mason and Martin off the bench to provide some scoring, probably draft some guys in the second round if we need to and then try to address that with free agency, but just because we needed shooters last year doesn't mean that we spend a top 3 pick on a guy that addresses that need and only that need. I want a guy that (in case Wall doesn't come back) we can still build around, or what happens if/when Wall goes down? I don't want to create a team where everybody needs the ball to be effective, but that doesn't mean we have to draft a bunch of spotup shooters.

---------- Post added June-13th-2012 at 06:57 AM ----------

Ive wanted Barnes since last year. What do we do with another project player that cant shoot? Who does wall kick the ball out to right now? Rashard Lewis?

We can get players to stretch the floor. What I want are guys that we can build a team around. Right now we've got a bunch of guys who should be riding the bench as starters. Shoot, I'd extend Mason and Martin off the bench to provide some scoring, probably draft some guys in the second round if we need to and then try to address that with free agency, but just because we needed shooters last year doesn't mean that we spend a top 3 pick on a guy that addresses that need and only that need. I want a guy that (in case Wall doesn't come back) we can still build around, or what happens if/when Wall goes down? I don't want to create a team where everybody needs the ball to be effective, but that doesn't mean we have to draft a bunch of spotup shooters.

[stevemcqueen1]

I don't know if I agree with this. Or at least I wonder why the sudden change. I've been a Barnes fan since 2010 when he picked up his game, but he definitely took a step back this year. Are we now superimpressed by his numbers and measurables that we're going to ignore what he did in games? I'm not anti-Barnes, in fact I think he's a really safe pick, but I wonder if falling in love with Barnes is just us trying to fill a need and not really picking the best player available.

It is. You're absolutely right here. Barnes's crazy combine numbers make it easier to justify reaching for him ahead of the other big names at the top.

Barnes isn't a better player than MKG though. He might have better shooting skills and better athletic test numbers but he's not a better player. It certainly wouldn't be the end of the world taking him at three. We'd be filling a need with a good player who is a true fit at SF. But I'm with you, I don't think it'd be getting the most out of our pick. I want to grab the guy with higher upside, there is no doubt in my mind that's MKG.

We can get players to stretch the floor. What I want are guys that we can build a team around. Right now we've got a bunch of guys who should be riding the bench as starters. Shoot, I'd extend Mason and Martin off the bench to provide some scoring, probably draft some guys in the second round if we need to and then try to address that with free agency, but just because we needed shooters last year doesn't mean that we spend a top 3 pick on a guy that addresses that need and only that need. I want a guy that (in case Wall doesn't come back) we can still build around, or what happens if/when Wall goes down? I don't want to create a team where everybody needs the ball to be effective, but that doesn't mean we have to draft a bunch of spotup shooters.

I'm with you here. But I'd say Barnes also projects as a solid defender, great finisher, and solid rebounder for his position. He can't pass for crap and his handles are subpar. But he should at least be complete enough to play decent defense and rebound in addition to having that wide repertoire of shots.

MKG looks like a far more complete player. To me his only significant downside is his shooting skills. The handles, passing, defending, finishing, and rebounding all look outstanding, all look significantly better than Barnes. Plus MKG seems intangibly superior to Barnes. He's a winner and overachiever and Barnes was an underachiever, plain and simple. If Barnes had MKG's heart and BBall IQ he would be the next Durant.

I look at our team and think it's still in a very raw form right now. I look at OKC as the model to follow given how good they've become, so quickly too. We need a second star and that guy is going to have to come from the draft. As a general strategy, we should go for upside until we get one, then once that foundation is in place, you fill the roster out with lesser players to fit the array of short term needs.

In other words, you can settle for a James Harden over Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry after you draft your Durant and Westbrook.

I think you go for one of the blue chippers at three. Barnes is not in the same caliber as Drummond, Robinson, and Gilchrist. I can understand the arguments against Drummond because of how shaky he looked last season and how far away he is. But if not him, I think the pick has to be Robinson or Gilchrist.

[Skin'emAlive]

I understand both opinions/sentiments. My only issue is that i dont see our team under our management taking a project and turning them into a star. Thats my issue. It is entirely contingent on the capabilities (or lack there of) of our management and front office. This is why i just wanted a shooter.

[Samuels]

It is. You're absolutely right here. Barnes's crazy combine numbers make it easier to justify reaching for him ahead of the other big names at the top.

Barnes isn't a better player than MKG though. He might have better shooting skills and better athletic test numbers but he's not a better player. It certainly wouldn't be the end of the world taking him at three. We'd be filling a need with a good player who is a true fit at SF. But I'm with you, I don't think it'd be getting the most out of our pick. I want to grab the guy with higher upside, there is no doubt in my mind that's MKG.



I'm with you here. But I'd say Barnes also projects as a solid defender, great finisher, and solid rebounder for his position. He can't pass for crap and his handles are subpar. But he should at least be complete enough to play decent defense and rebound in addition to having that wide repertoire of shots.

MKG looks like a far more complete player. To me his only significant downside is his shooting skills. The handles, passing, defending, finishing, and rebounding all look outstanding, all look significantly better than Barnes. Plus MKG seems intangibly superior to Barnes. He's a winner and overachiever and Barnes was an underachiever, plain and simple. If Barnes had MKG's heart and BBall IQ he would be the next Durant.

I look at our team and think it's still in a very raw form right now. I look at OKC as the model to follow given how good they've become, so quickly too. We need a second star and that guy is going to have to come from the draft. As a general strategy, we should go for upside until we get one, then once that foundation is in place, you fill the roster out with lesser players to fit the array of short term needs.

In other words, you can settle for a James Harden over Tyreke Evans or Steph Curry after you draft your Durant and Westbrook.

I think you go for one of the blue chippers at three. Barnes is not in the same caliber as Drummond, Robinson, and Gilchrist. I can understand the arguments against Drummond because of how shaky he looked last season and how far away he is. But if not him, I think the pick has to be Robinson or Gilchrist.

My views have nothing to do with combine results. I like a consistent body of work which is why I like Sully over Trob. People can't judge Barnes based on the last few games its a body of work.

Here is what I saw in going back

Mkg plays like a Pf in college lots of postups on smaller college Sf's shooting lots of hook shots. Thats not gonna happen in the Nba againest longer Sf's. He is weak as heck to be 230+ and do 6 reps its pitiful at that weight not that it means alot but he wont be a bully on the block. His ballhandling is over rated and he very rarely created off the dribble. Most of his buckets came running the break or posting up.He plays hard and is a good defender but nowhere near what Singleton was at Fsu and we see how that translated although I think he turns it around with a full camp. Mkg will play defense, play hard, rebound and finish on the break and thats about it until he develops a jumpshot. The kid only averaged 20ppg playing in high school.


With Barnes what you see is what you get. I think he is a 17-20ppg 5-6 reb Nba player. He plays good defense,posses protypical Sf size and is flatout deadly with his feet set especially on the break. He is a good finisher on the break and a decent rebounder. He hit alot of shots off the dribble but don' t beat many to the rim. He is a perfect fit with a Pg like Wall to get him wide open jumpers. He should continue to improve after being a bigman most of his life.

Sully vs Trob

Trob scares me the most he will be boom or bust. He could' nt sniff the court his first 2 seasons or even get more then 10 min per game. The Morris twins are' nt anything special proving that this year. If your a special elite talent they find a spot for you. Not only that but his To' s are very high for a bigman even in limited minutes the previous seasons. What he is though this year was a bulldog outhustling guys playing hard.

When I compare Sully and Trob to me its skill vs athletism. Both struggle with lenght, both play good post man defense but dont defend the rim. Both are good rebounders. But Sully is advanced offensively a very skilled, smart player. He knows when to screen& roll, has array of post moves with excellent footwork. He has developed a nice 3 pt shot and is deadly from the highpost pick and pop game. He showed his work ethic losing weight but he wont wow anyone with his physique or athlethism. Trob seems to be the type that will run the floor, get putbacks ans stick a elbow jumpers but not a offensive creater at all on the block like Sully. If he can' t rebound the same way as college and we' ve seen it before with dominant guys like Beasley he will be a bust and 1 year wonder.

[RonArtest15]

T-Rob is boom or bust, but Sullinger isn't? I'm not following. Yes, he had more success (statistically) in college than Robinson, but let's not kid ourselves that there aren't questions about how he'll transition to the NBA. He's going to have to absolutely WORK to get his shots off. Something that his lack of footspeed and athleticism may hold back.

Best case scenarios for both guys, IMO.

Sullinger - Boozer
Robinson - More focused Amar'e.

[nuposse87]

My views have nothing to do with combine results. I like a consistent body of work which is why I like Sully over Trob. People can't judge Barnes based on the last few games its a body of work.

Here is what I saw in going back

Mkg plays like a Pf in college lots of postups on smaller college Sf's shooting lots of hook shots. Thats not gonna happen in the Nba againest longer Sf's. He is weak as heck to be 230+ and do 6 reps its pitiful at that weight not that it means alot but he wont be a bully on the block. His ballhandling is over rated and he very rarely created off the dribble. Most of his buckets came running the break or posting up.He plays hard and is a good defender but nowhere near what Singleton was at Fsu and we see how that translated although I think he turns it around with a full camp. Mkg will play defense, play hard, rebound and finish on the break and thats about it until he develops a jumpshot. The kid only averaged 20ppg playing in high school.

You do know, Terrance Jones was their PF right? MKG may attack the post like a PF but he definitely showed enough ability that would classify him as a SF. Again, being able to bench press so and so amount of times doesn't correlate to a strong game, especially in basketball. I'll take MKG's defense in year one over Singleton's defensive prowess in his latter years in FSU. I don't know if it was the lockout shorten seasoned or simply not being ready for the pros, but Singleton's production fell off a cliff. He is a decent backup wing but I have my doubts regarding him as a starter. His ball handling (MKG's) is still better than Singleton's and something no one seems to realize, is that this offense is predicated on Wall creating for others, if other players are just OK ball handlers it shouldn't be that big of a concern.

With Barnes what you see is what you get. I think he is a 17-20ppg 5-6 reb Nba player. He plays good defense,posses protypical Sf size and is flatout deadly with his feet set especially on the break. He is a good finisher on the break and a decent rebounder. He hit alot of shots off the dribble but don' t beat many to the rim. He is a perfect fit with a Pg like Wall to get him wide open jumpers. He should continue to improve after being a bigman most of his life.

Barnes does have the physical tools to succeed but he hasn't exactly dominated college play. For someone who was as touted as he was to shoot as poorly as he did at UNC should be a warning rather than an "oh well this guy measueres to so-and-so numbers, clearly he is going to be 20 ppg shooter."
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...-barnes-1.html

He slightly upped his stats and while his PER and TS% are pretty good his advanced stats aren't as impressive as MKG's

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/...lchrist-1.html

Barnes strikes me as the type of guy that could help a bad team score but unable to help a good team win.

Sully vs Trob

Trob scares me the most he will be boom or bust. He could' nt sniff the court his first 2 seasons or even get more then 10 min per game. The Morris twins are' nt anything special proving that this year. If your a special elite talent they find a spot for you. Not only that but his To' s are very high for a bigman even in limited minutes the previous seasons. What he is though this year was a bulldog outhustling guys playing hard.

Markieff stil has a chance to be an OK pro, but his brother....just sucks..I'm a little with you here, in that I see T-rob having some bust potential...but I think his floor is the safest in this draft, unless you draft A. Davis. His style of play leads me to belive he can at least make a couple jumpshots a game with put backs and hustle points rounding him out. At the very least, a 10-8 PF.

When I compare Sully and Trob to me its skill vs athletism. Both struggle with lenght, both play good post man defense but dont defend the rim. Both are good rebounders. But Sully is advanced offensively a very skilled, smart player. He knows when to screen& roll, has array of post moves with excellent footwork. He has developed a nice 3 pt shot and is deadly from the highpost pick and pop game. He showed his work ethic losing weight but he wont wow anyone with his physique or athlethism. Trob seems to be the type that will run the floor, get putbacks ans stick a elbow jumpers but not a offensive creater at all on the block like Sully. If he can' t rebound the same way as college and we' ve seen it before with dominant guys like Beasley he will be a bust and 1 year wonder.

OK people need to wake up and realize how terrible Sullinger will be at the next level. He may be the most skilled big man in the draft, but he will be an AWFUL defensive liability. His lane agility is on par with Brendan Freaking Haywood. You can't possibly twist the fact he won't be able to keep up with PFs in the NBA let alone rotate quickly enough to provide any sort of weak side help. Robinson has shown he has some post moves, and I don't see why he won't improve. Robinson's jump shot doesn't even look all that bad, if Booker can improve as much as he did, I don't see why anyone would doubt Robinson could. We've already seen how woeful Sullinger performs when confronted with NBA size as the match against Kansas clearly demonstrates. Sully may be a decent big man off the bench, but he has NO potential to be a starter in this league. At least T-rob has that going for him.

[Fight4RGIII]

OK people need to wake up and realize how terrible Sullinger will be at the next level. He may be the most skilled big man in the draft, but he will be an AWFUL defensive liability. His lane agility is on par with Brendan Freaking Haywood. You can't possibly twist the fact he won't be able to keep up with PFs in the NBA let alone rotate quickly enough to provide any sort of weak side help. Robinson has shown he has some post moves, and I don't see why he won't improve. Robinson's jump shot doesn't even look all that bad, if Booker can improve as much as he did, I don't see why anyone would doubt Robinson could. We've already seen how woeful Sullinger performs when confronted with NBA size as the match against Kansas clearly demonstrates. Sully may be a decent big man off the bench, but he has NO potential to be a starter in this league. At least T-rob has that going for him.

Yeah that is pretty much how I see Sully. A good bench big man like Glen Davis or Dejuan Blair. He'll be productive but not a great starter. Great value pick in the mid-late first or even late lottery. He'd be a decent fit for Houston with one of their mid first round picks if he is there. I like Nicholson better than Sully and he is suppose to be a mid-late first. Not even considered in the lottery.

[Skins199021]

I just don't get what MKG brings to the table? A slightly better Chris Singleton as it stands now?

We can't just keep going after players with no perimeter game. Beal is great as a perimeter shooter and he can rebound and dribble good too.

Having a guy like Beal allows wall to drive and kick it out, which will open space for the bigs, and Wall himself who mostly scores by driving to the basket.

[Samuels]

OK people need to wake up and realize how terrible Sullinger will be at the next level. He may be the most skilled big man in the draft, but he will be an AWFUL defensive liability. His lane agility is on par with Brendan Freaking Haywood. You can't possibly twist the fact he won't be able to keep up with PFs in the NBA let alone rotate quickly enough to provide any sort of weak side help. Robinson has shown he has some post moves, and I don't see why he won't improve. Robinson's jump shot doesn't even look all that bad, if Booker can improve as much as he did, I don't see why anyone would doubt Robinson could. We've already seen how woeful Sullinger performs when confronted with NBA size as the match against Kansas clearly demonstrates. Sully may be a decent big man off the bench, but he has NO potential to be a starter in this league. At least T-rob has that going for him.

Never said Mkg played Pf. I said he played like a Pf in college posting up smaller Sf' s basically 2 guards shooting his baby hook.

People can doubt Sully all they want we'll see.

What is Barnes shooting percentages i' d bet Beals are' nt better then either of Barnes seasons. Thats without looking so i could be wrong. But spotting up Barnes is deadly.

[nuposse87]

Never said Mkg played Pf. I said he played like a Pf in college posting up smaller Sf' s basically 2 guards shooting his baby hook.

People can doubt Sully all they want we'll see.

What is Barnes shooting percentages i' d bet Beals are' nt better then either of Barnes seasons. Thats without looking so i could be wrong. But spotting up Barnes is deadly.

I still think MKG is crafty enough to score effectively in the NBA, he isn't a good shooter from the perimeter, really that is the only gamble with him. And with his work ethic, I think it is worth it.

As to your wait and see approach for Sullinger...I don't even think he is worth a 1st round pick, and I am dead serious about that. He has back issues, compile that with all my reasoning in my previous post, I can't see how anyone would think he is worth waiting and seeing on. Sorry but I'd rather not see any franchise waste a pick on him, let alone it be my beloved Wizards :/

Well...if you clicked my link you would have seen Barnes shot 42% his first season and 44% his next season. In Beal's rather "mediocre" by some of the people's here standards...first year, he shot 44.5%. Of course I'd rather look at eFG% instead of FG%. Barnes' eFG% was nearly identical in his rookie and sophomore campaign , 48.8 and 48.7 respectively. Beal's eFG% was 52.5%. Oh and it doesn't end there, Beal had a better Per and TS%. When Beal and Barnes was on the floor , Florida and UNC were about the same defensively, but Beal also led to more offensive production when he was on the floor than Barnes. Outside of Barnes being marginally better from the 3 point line, there is not statistical argument you could tell me to take Barnes over beal. Beal is simply better. Not to say Barnes isn't worth a lottery pick, but at the 3rd pick, it is an easy decision between the two.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

In all honesty, to me the criticism that "X can't shoot" isn't that big of a deal to me. Magic Johnson couldn't shoot when he entered the league. Scottie Pippen couldn't shoot. Hell, Michael Jordan shot under 18 percent from the three point line for four years.

Granted, it's a concern on this team since the star player already can't shoot. Having your two best players not be able to shoot is a problem on a basketball team. But, players learn how to shoot in the NBA. You can hire a coach and take a thousand jumpers a day (as long as you have a work ethic). Will MKG ever have Barnes' stroke? Probably not. But I don't think his jumper is the jumper he will have forever either.

No really learns learns how to rebound or play hard or lock down on D or see the floor or beat someone off the dribble.

It just seems like every draft is filled with shooters who got to the NBA and realized that they couldn't get open or defend. (FYI, I don't think that will be Barnes...except maybe on D).

---------- Post added June-13th-2012 at 03:56 PM ----------

As to your wait and see approach for Sullinger...I don't even think he is worth a 1st round pick, and I am dead serious about that. He has back issues, compile that with all my reasoning in my previous post, I can't see how anyone would think he is worth waiting and seeing on. Sorry but I'd rather not see any franchise waste a pick on him, let alone it be my beloved Wizards :/

I don't think I go that far, but the league is not exactly overstuffed with power forwards who play below the basket. The list is basically Zbow and....I dunno....Big Baby? Maybe Paul Millsap?