Honestly, ES Should Probably Be Shut Down....

[Go_Jibbs!]

Yes... I could not have said it any better.

Lots of the younger generation have such a sense of "entitlement" when it comes to this team. They feel they are "owed" nothing but wins and superbowl trophies. I like winning, but supporting a team goes deeper than just winning. It's everything... the good, the bad, the ugly. and the beautiful. If winning and scoring is all that you honestly care about, turn off the Redskins game, and go watch "Redzone."

PS. Redzone should issue a jersey... it could be gray and say... TOUCHDOWN!!! across the back.

[ConnSKINS26]

I hold to the opinion that if Bradford were here instead of McNabb (and Trent Williams, and probably next years first ), which TK has implied was the original plan, we could have the same record, same results, or probably worse in both categories, and the tone around here would be completely different.

Because its all about the perception of the "plan". And when we were "stuck" with McNabb, for lack of a better word, the plan, in our perception, changed.

The fact that we actually kept MORE picks, especially high ones, by being "stuck" with McNabb, and still have the ability to draft our own "Sam Bradford" (AKA young potential franchise QB to build around) before he's gone, doesn't change the fact that despite the situation not being much different, the perception of this team "rebuilding" is not there.

And that gives us unrealistic expectations.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Not sure what else you wanted them to do....they cut a boatload of higher-priced vets...you have to fill out the roster with bodies...yes, many of those bodies are vets as well, but they are simply stop-gaps--I ahve a very hard time believing that Shanny is putting any real stock into Galloway or Vonnie Holliday. Signing LJ and Parker was roster fodder...throw something on the wall and see if it sticks...they are both gone already with no negative effects from having signed them.



The McNabb trade seems to be the stumbling block from people here...and I think many misinterpreted the message. We had NO ONE at the position...NO ONE...and I think Shanny realized that the one young guy he really wanted (Bradford) was not going to be available. Rather than be putrid at QB, he made a trade for a vet that will stabalize the spot and keep the set warm until we can get someone younger developed. You can debate the merits of this strategy but I think I see where Shanny was going with it...



One thing that many fans also seem to forget is that Shanny himself may have wanted to actually coach some of these guys before making full roster decisions....maybe he wanted to test the waters and see if this team had a chance to compete before getting rid of all of them?



And you know what? He won't be able to fix it ALL before next season either...no way we get the upgrades at WR, OL, RB, DL, and LB we clearly need. This off-season he focused on fixing the OT position...accomplished and getting a capable QB for the interim...accomplished. Now, it's on to the next task....

Thanks for typing this out Kleese. I'm at work and wasn't sure I would have time.

I don't know the background of every person in this thread so let me ask, how many of you are even remotely qualified to be a position coach on a NFL team? None? Then STFU.

We all complained last year about our front office. We turned in fan cards. But we got a new front office. And three games in you want to questions the decisions of a coach with 2 rings?

We need more youth? Good point. Why didn't Allen/Shanny cut the whole roster and go out and sign a 25 year old pro-bowler at every position? I'm sure it's that simple.

We wasted picks on McNabb? Who should we have left in there? And what would you all be saying if we had Joe QB in there and were guaranteed a 0-16 season? And Brown? What pick did we give up for him again? And what are the chances of getting quality starting O-line for that pick?

As someone else already said, we still have to field a team this year. And we had to get some people in here to have at least a fighting chance. So what is the long term plan? I dunno, but I bet the guy making that plan is better qualified to do it then we are. So give him a chance.

I'm not saying we as fans can't sit around the camp fire and discuss why certain things were done. It's fun and it gives up something to do with the other 6 days of the week. But stop crying. Give it a chance to work.

[Henry]

Thanks for typing this out Kleese. I'm at work and wasn't sure I would have time.

I don't know the background of every person in this thread so let me ask, how many of you are even remotely qualified to be a position coach on a NFL team? None? Then STFU.

We all complained last year about our front office. We turned in fan cards. But we got a new front office. And three games in you want to questions the decisions of a coach with 2 rings?

We need more youth? Good point. Why didn't Allen/Shanny cut the whole roster and go out and sign a 25 year old pro-bowler at every position? I'm sure it's that simple.

We wasted picks on McNabb? Who should we have left in there? And what would you all be saying if we had Joe QB in there and were guaranteed a 0-16 season? And Brown? What pick did we give up for him again? And what are the chances of getting quality starting O-line for that pick?

As someone else already said, we still have to field a team this year. And we had to get some people in here to have at least a fighting chance. So what is the long term plan? I dunno, but I bet the guy making that plan is better qualified to do it then we are. So give him a chance.

I'm not saying we as fans can't sit around the camp fire and discuss why certain things were done. It's fun and it gives up something to do with the other 6 days of the week. But stop crying. Give it a chance to work.

This has been the battle-cry of the Redskin fan since the turn of the century. Sorry, but it doesn't keep me warm at night anymore.

[TheGreatBuzz]

This has been the battle-cry of the Redskin fan since the turn of the century. Sorry, but it doesn't keep me warm at night anymore.

So what is the fix then? No more complaining. If you now better then all the football minds of the last 20 years, you fix it. How? And remember your fix can't be a long term plan. From the time Shanny came on board to right now, what would you have done that would have GUARANTEED we would be better then this. And without mortgaging the future. Please be specific.

[Henry]

I'm curious. Why can't my fix be a long term plan?

And sorry, but 'you're not a coach so shut up' doesn't fly.

If my car is still clanging after I pick it up from the shop I don't think 'I'm not a mechanic so I should just shut up.'

If I go to a restaurant and the food tastes like crap I don't think 'I'm not a chef so I should just shut up.'

No, I'm not a football coach but I'm a paying customer. I've been one for 30 years and I know when the car is smoking something is wrong. I know when I cut the steak and green puss oozes out something is wrong. When you put a product out there and I pay for it, you should absolutely be held accountable for that product. If we are not holding the Redskins accountable for consistently putting an awful product on the field, at some point the fault lies with us. And right now, losing to the Rams the way we did considering the way this team has apparently been built, should be unacceptable.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Sorry. It can be a long term plan but MUST have immediate results. After all, isn't that what we have expected of Shanny & Co.? He is 3 games in and everyone is questioning what he is doing already. Maybe he is thinking longer term.

[kleese]

This has been the battle-cry of the Redskin fan since the turn of the century. Sorry, but it doesn't keep me warm at night anymore.

Again, that's the issue I have with your "take" Henry...you are so sick of waiting and investing in previous regimes that you are jaded to the point of panicking after three games with THIS regime. They took over a mess and they started dealing with it. Maybe they made a few decisions that you don't think were good ones...but I don't think we'll really be able to judge for awhile. If we go 6-10 this year and Shanny starts unloading picks for vets and spending in FA to try to speed the process up, THEN I will get worried and levy some serious criticism his way. But right now, I think he wanted to have a few reliable pieces in place (QB and OT) and go from there.

[kleese]

I'm curious. Why can't my fix be a long term plan?

And sorry, but 'you're not a coach so shut up' doesn't fly.

If my car is still clanging after I pick it up from the shop I don't think 'I'm not a mechanic so I should just shut up.'

If I go to a restaurant and the food tastes like crap I don't think 'I'm not a chef so I should just shut up.'

No, I'm not a football coach but I'm a paying customer. I've been one for 30 years and I know when the car is smoking something is wrong. I know when I cut the steak and green puss oozes out something is wrong. When you put a product out there and I pay for it, you should absolutely be held accountable for that product. If we are not holding the Redskins accountable for consistently putting an awful product on the field, at some point the fault lies with us. And right now, losing to the Rams the way we did considering the way this team has apparently been built, should be unacceptable.

To that point, if you are strictly talking the product on the field THIS year, I'd say the results aren't too bad.

We beat one team that is clearly better/more talented than we are and we did so by putting together a great gameplan and playing tough.
We lost in overtime to another team that is clearly better/more talented than we are; but I don't think the "product" we produced on the field that day was garbage.
We laid an egg in St. Louis--no arguing that. If we play like that over the next 13 games, I'll be right with you. But I think we'll continue to see a mix of what we've seen through the first three games.

[TheGreatBuzz]

To that point, if you are strictly talking the product on the field THIS year, I'd say the results aren't too bad.

We beat one team that is clearly better/more talented than we are and we did so by putting together a great gameplan and playing tough.
We lost in overtime to another team that is clearly better/more talented than we are; but I don't think the "product" we produced on the field that day was garbage.
We laid an egg in St. Louis--no arguing that. If we play like that over the next 13 games, I'll be right with you. But I think we'll continue to see a mix of what we've seen through the first three games.

Good job kleese. I just saw he edited that last post and was forming my argument in my head. Seems like you and I are on the same page. I said when Shanny got here that he has 3 years to get us to serious contender status before I would start questioning him. At least beyond the normal, around the campfire, why did he do that stuff? But that is more just debating then it is being angry

[Henry]

Sorry. It can be a long term plan but MUST have immediate results. After all, isn't that what we have expected of Shanny & Co.? He is 3 games in and everyone is questioning what he is doing already. Maybe he is thinking longer term.

Again, that's the issue I have with your "take" Henry...you are so sick of waiting and investing in previous regimes that you are jaded to the point of panicking after three games with THIS regime. They took over a mess and they started dealing with it. Maybe they made a few decisions that you don't think were good ones...but I don't think we'll really be able to judge for awhile. If we go 6-10 this year and Shanny starts unloading picks for vets and spending in FA to try to speed the process up, THEN I will get worried and levy some serious criticism his way. But right now, I think he wanted to have a few reliable pieces in place (QB and OT) and go from there.

I'm obviously not making myself clear. When I make posts like:

If the plan is to win now, you gotta win now.

If the plan is to build for the future, you have to stockpile picks and take your lumps playing lots of young guys.

From what I can see, the Redskins aren't doing either of those things yet.

and

I would do what 99% of the teams do when they are 4-12 and one of the five oldest teams in the league. Grab as many picks as you can for the next few years and build a team the old fashioned way. I'm sorry, you cannot expect me to believe it would have been impossible for us to trade players for picks rather than the other way around.

and

I would be fine losing to anybody by any amount if I saw signs that this team was investing in young talent for the future. Trading away picks for 'interim' players which cripples our ability to do that is a complete waste, in my opinion, unless you avoid embarrassing yourself against one of the worst teams in the league, which we most certainly did not do.

and

However, I really really really ... really hope Shanahan isn't going to try and build his team the same way. Gibbs record as a front office guy is spotty at best. His attempt to rebuild on the fly is a sizable contributing factor to the disaster that this current team has become. When he left the cupboard went bare very quickly, and I'd really hate to see this team again have a few ok seasons followed by such a huge crash and burn.

I am absolutely, positively and in all other ways NOT advocating winning now. I am a full-blown advocate of tearing this team down and building it back up again. To date, we have not done that. From what I can tell we are still trying to cobble a team together with scotch tape and chewing gum. I know what you are saying kleese. It is entirely possible that 'short-term' is not the plan. But I sure haven't seen any indication to suggest that, and given the age of the QB they traded away picks to acquire, EXPECTING long term thinking from this new front office isn't a logical conclusion. Sure, we can HOPE for it. I know I do. I would have like to have seen something more tangible than the continuation of the policy of filling holes with older players rather than exhibiting some patience and building through the draft. Theorize all you want, but the Redskins have not done that yet, even to the degree that they COULD have this year.

And when we're STILL laying eggs like the one we did yesterday, that makes my concern grow just that much more.

[Henry]

To that point, if you are strictly talking the product on the field THIS year, I'd say the results aren't too bad.

We beat one team that is clearly better/more talented than we are and we did so by putting together a great gameplan and playing tough.
We lost in overtime to another team that is clearly better/more talented than we are; but I don't think the "product" we produced on the field that day was garbage.
We laid an egg in St. Louis--no arguing that. If we play like that over the next 13 games, I'll be right with you. But I think we'll continue to see a mix of what we've seen through the first three games.

I think Shanahan is a good coach, and I think he can cover for a lot, but this team is too full of holes for that to last. I'm not taking about the play on the field, actually. I'm talking about what we've been doing off the field.

But since you brought it up, we've been playing worse every week since the opener. Our defense, in particular, has gotten worse every week until this week when it played as badly as I've ever seen it. I find this trend particularly disturbing. It's one we've seen from this team many times before. Play a few games close early and then collapse into disarray by the halfway mark. This comes from having an old team with a new coach. Personally, if we're going to lose anyway I'd rather lose with young guys. That would at least indicate a plan of some sort. Right now all we've got to go on is hope based on the fact that our coach has a good track record with another team.

[thesubmittedone]

This has been the battle-cry of the Redskin fan since the turn of the century. Sorry, but it doesn't keep me warm at night anymore.

If you want to be kept warm at night maybe you shouldn't be a Redskin fan? I mean, is that what fanhood is about? You just admitted to being fairweather by wanting to be "kept warm", and you did it quite literally. Not saying that's what you are, but I hope you realize the problem with your statement there and retract.

Ugh, yes we were awful yesterday. We stank. We might stink it up the rest of this season, we might not. That's enough for me to keep rooting for this team, simply because it's MY team. I don't need them to win to be MY team. If it was only about winning, then I can easily choose to be a fan of a bunch of other franchises. All we have is hope as fans. You want more than that then just jump to whatever franchise is winning at the friggin time, but don't complain about not feeling "warm at night" about your team. We're better than that!

[Henry]

If you want to be kept warm at night maybe you shouldn't be a Redskin fan? I mean, is that what fanhood is about? You just admitted to being fairweather by wanting to be "kept warm", and you did it quite literally. Not saying that's what you are, but I hope you realize the problem with your statement there and retract.

Ugh, yes we were awful yesterday. We stank. We might stink it up the rest of this season, we might not. That's enough for me to keep rooting for this team, simply because it's MY team. I don't need them to win to be MY team. If it was only about winning, then I can easily choose to be a fan of a bunch of other franchises. All we have is hope as fans. You want more than that then just jump to whatever franchise is winning at the friggin time, but don't complain about not feeling "warm at night" about your team. We're better than that!

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Fanhood is about wanting your team to win. Period.

And yes, I want the Redskins to win. When I want another team to win instead you can ask for my fan card.

[UK SKINS FAN '74]

you see outrage at losing to the Rams.

Losing is one thing, losing in the manner we did to the Rams is another.

Kick off out of bounds, 40yrd touchdown run (untouched), fumbles, blocked punt, repeated penalties on offense, an inability to stop 3rd & long or 4th & short......It was a bit of a shambles throughout.

I am a realist. I don't have over-hyped expectations for this year.

But there is little excuse for much of what was on display yesterday. Even the most average of players & coaches should manage with the basics, in my opinion.

And that is what leads to my frustration, it's not the losing, it's more the manner in which we lost.