Honestly, ES Should Probably Be Shut Down....

[Thinking Skins]

Uh, did you check out our roster from our 1999 division-winning team?

Do you really think this team is that much inferior, position by position? Really?

Look, I think losers who pretend they are 'reasonable' are the actual bane of this board. For how long have we seen this post---YEAR after YEAR after YEAR. At some point, after looking at teams literally go from worst to first in a year, BAD organizations or poisoned teams like the Falcons when Vick got in trouble (and Petrino walked out on them and everyone went nuts) you have to say that this entire 'plan' or 'process' needed isn't long at all.

Fact is, we rolled the dice on 3-4 but should have either been more hybrid or just went back as far as we could to Gregg WIlliams system because the talent on the D, if not deep (at LB) is actually pretty good. Do you guys ever sit and compare rosters? This team isn't any worse than, I bet, half the teams that make the playoffs. You guys keep telling us how bad the talent is, or how old the team is BUT YOU SAID THAT FOUR YEARS AGO.

YOU KEEP SAYING IT. AT some point, you're just saying something because it puts you on a higher plane than the more emotional but more ACCURATE people who are on the other side. You're not more rational because you appear dispassionate, you are merely pompous but just as invested in an absurd point of view. The fact is, this 'clean-up' doesn't have to take that long, especially with a Cowboys team still teetering (and defeated by this squad two weeks ago) and a Giants team that looks maybe worse than the SKins. No reason why the team can't compete for the playoffs with an excellent QB.

Neither Philly's nor GB's lines are 1991 Hogs vintage, OK. They just aren't. There's no reason why even a team with a flawed offensive line can't still be pretty good in THIS era.

Kleese and other "calm and reasoned" folk need to understand something. We ain't buyin' your brand, you've been peddling it, even in the midst of us about to make a late season run to the playoffs. Every year, same ol' ****. At some point, it's your type who seems tired and lacking in a rational approach to evaluating the team. What did you guys say in 2005 after a pretty bad year in 2004? That we were headed to the playoffs? That we, barring a Brunell late-season injury, could have won the SB? No, I'm pretty sure your type didn't unless you were still swept up in Gibbs II.

The Williams system is not the only successful system in the league. Just because we've had moderate success under it doesn't mean we need to go back to it.

As far as the talk about the roster being better/worse. All you need to do is take an honest look at our roster vs our division. We have guys like Orakpo, McNabb, Moss, Cooley, Fletcher, and Haynesworth, and maybe Landry but those are the only players on our team that are even in the conversation for best players at their position. The rest are a bunch of guys who we just hope to do well and not make mistakes.

I've realized the age and mediocrity of this roster for YEARS, and unfortunately Snyder hasn't heard me yet. But that doesn't mean that I've been wrong. If our roster was so talented, then it would be able to overcome some of the inept coaching decisions. Look at Dallas, able up put up good records the past few seasons in spite of their coach. Same for Philly. Part of our problem is the Gibbs philosophy of trusting only veterans (ala veteran leadership). Not only does it hinder the development of talent (ala DT), but it also lessens the incentive of putting youth on the roster because we're unlikely to utilize it. If Zorn had been given another year, then after what we saw last year we'd probably have had an influx of youth because the injuries forced him to play the young guys. But now we've got a new coach who wants to trust his own veterans. So we've gotta see where the team goes this year.

But I think its all about Shanny learning his team this year and if they can put together a Marty like run, then no problem, but I think its more about getting 53 men in the locker room who believe in his system and his approach than just a typical "win now" approach.

[Thinking Skins]

The line didn't look much better against the rams. They had zero push and were getting blown up in pass protection. They are far from respectable.

Because with Heyer at LT we're a large step closer to the line we had last year.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

I realize the Bears are at home, but this is, defensively, much the same team that we have beaten in previous years. Offensively, they were mostly horrid last year and their line isn't very good. Yet they are matching up with one of the best teams in the NFC. In their first year in this new offensive system. Their line isn't very good at all.

I'm trying to figure out why a team should be so focused on 'rebuilding' when teams with inferior talent KEEP the system that worked for them on D and simply change the most flawed part of their organization (offense.) WHy we couldn't take a similar approach, I don't know. I'm not even saying don't change to 3-4 eventually, but do so when you have had one solid offseason to draft and acquire the pieces in the first two levels of the defense.

Sorry, again, I don't buy your guys' argument about how awful this team is at 4-12. Well the year before that we were 8-8 and the 2 of the previous three years we were in the playoffs. We've infused the team with some talent here and there, it's not been a static franchise. I keep looking at teams with cast-offs and marginal players at key spots and still somehow able to cobble together a contending team or at least one that is making waves early here this season.

[Thinking Skins]

Sorry, again, I don't buy your guys' argument about how awful this team is at 4-12. Well the year before that we were 8-8 and the 2 of the previous three years we were in the playoffs. We've infused the team with some talent here and there, it's not been a static franchise. I keep looking at teams with cast-offs and marginal players at key spots and still somehow able to cobble together a contending team or at least one that is making waves early here this season.

We're 6-18 in the last 24 games. We've really been horrible lately. We showed promise early in 2008, but whether it was injuries, or age, or coaching, we've sucked since then. Maybe we were still riding off #21 and just came back to reality. Remember how we weren't even going to go to the playoffs in 2007 if not for the Todd Collins games, which happened to be the games (minus 1 game) after Sean Taylor died? Maybe we just weren't a good team back then either. I'll even go back to 2005 and say that even that year we weren't that good of a team. We were on the brink of missing the playoffs then too, but went on a winning streak to clinch. But don't act like we were a dominant 10-6 team that year, we were 10-6, but a few lucky bounces from being 6-10 or 7-9.

What I always say about this team is that we're an 8-8 team with the potential to go 6-10 to 10-6. Last year showed me that the 6-10 is a bit high. Like a few other members of the board say, I'm not satisfied with just double digit wins where we win every game by 1 or 2 points. I want to have a dominant team again. I want to have a top 5 offense and a top 5 defense. I want to have a team that freakin blows teams out. But thats not gonna happen with this talent.

[Mooka]

Mike Shanahan clearly is not going to "rebuild." He's said so plenty of times and didn't hesitate to trade for McNabb. And its not a choice between win now or rebuild now. Henry is correct, we're not doing either of those things.

What Shanahan is doing is building a Mike Shanahan team. That means a QB with strong WC fundamentals and athleticism, a zone-blocking line, and a RB committee. That also means someone else is going to build us a defense unfortunately.

That means:
- we're not going to "develop" a young QB under McNabb. Any QB brought in here will compete right away; rookie or vet.
- we're not going to "develop" a young nucleus of players. We're going to bring in players that fit the system.


Its not either or here.

[GoDeep81]

Why does this thread get stickied? Just curious.. It looks like any of the other umpteen threads I've read where its said how we stunk against the Rams but the world isnt ending? Just sayin..

[MDstar08]

Why does this thread get stickied? Just curious.. It looks like any of the other umpteen threads I've read where its said how we stunk against the Rams but the world isnt ending? Just sayin..

Exactly wat I was thinking..I'm focus on philly now so.

[thesubmittedone]

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Fanhood is about wanting your team to win. Period.

And yes, I want the Redskins to win. When I want another team to win instead you can ask for my fan card.

Wanting them to win and complaining when they aren't winning are two different things, that was the point I was making. You are making them mutually inclusive, when they aren't. Wanting them to win does not mean you complain when they lose. One is the essence of fanhood, the other is just pettiness and an inability to accept your lack of control.

I keep seeing people write "I'm sick and tired of this" or "I'm done being patient", lol... ok, now what? What are you "done with" exactly? What are you going to do now? There's absolutely no point, as a fan, in saying those things other than saying them for the sake of complaining and whining. Nothing comes out of them except that. If you want to apply for a job with the team, or seek out a player/coach and let them know how you feel... maybe those phrases mean something. If not, I'm sorry, it's pathetic whining. That's all it is. Either that, or it's a display of the clear desire to root for a winning team exclusively.

I'd like an explanation as to how it can be construed as something else other than those two things. And if you answer "venting", that's the same pettiness I'm talking about. What are we, children that throw temper tantrums when things don't go our way? Judging by some of the posts here, that looks to be closest to the truth.

I'm not going to stop believing this team can make the playoffs until they're mathematically eliminated, even against all logic. You know why? Because, in life (and sports are obviously a part of that), "miracles" (really, the unexpected or what is perceived as abnormal) happen all the time. I don't need to be told constantly that we suck. If I want logic to be a part of my fanhood, then there are plenty of other teams who are much more logical to root for! That's not to say we can't discuss our shortcomings; reflect on losses; or question the decisions made by coaches/players, so please don't confuse what I'm saying with that idea, which seems to always happen. I'm talking about complaining or giving up hope specifically.

Why does this thread get stickied? Just curious.. It looks like any of the other umpteen threads I've read where its said how we stunk against the Rams but the world isnt ending? Just sayin..

It got stickied because it was one of the first (if not the first) of those "umpteen" threads you mention.

[Oldfan]

thesubmittedone ~ I'm not going to stop believing this team can make the playoffs until they're mathematically eliminated, even against all logic. You know why? Because, in life (and sports are obviously a part of that), "miracles" (really, the unexpected or what is perceived as abnormal) happen all the time. I don't need to be told constantly that we suck. If I want logic to be a part of my fanhood, then there are plenty of other teams who are much more logical to root for! That's not to say we can't discuss our shortcomings; reflect on losses; or question the decisions made by coaches/players, so please don't confuse what I'm saying with that idea, which seems to always happen. I'm talking about complaining or giving up hope specifically.

Please accept the following as well-meant constructive criticism: In my opinion, this need you have to think of yourself as a better Redskins fan is ego-based. We humans are egotistical animals. We all have an ego problem, and this judgmental attitude toward other fans is a manifestation of yours.

I don't come here to discuss our hopes for the Redskins. I'm willing to grant that all who identify themselves as Redskins fans hope for the best. I come to discuss or debate our realistic expectations. If it bothers you to read my realistic expectations, put me on your ignore list.

[Art McDonough]

Shannahan said at the beginning of the season that the fans should have high expectations for the team this year because he did. You can tell in his pressers that he is fuming at the level of play. No, we have talent issues no doubt but we also have execution issues that are preventing us from playing as well as we should. I believe if we start executing, we could win 8 games this year. If not, we may finish 1-15.

[Oldfan]

Shannahan said at the beginning of the season that the fans should have high expectations for the team this year because he did. You can tell in his pressers that he is fuming at the level of play. No, we have talent issues no doubt but we also have execution issues that are preventing us from playing as well as we should. I believe if we start executing, we could win 8 games this year. If not, we may finish 1-15.

Aren't most execution issues caused by lack of talent or poor coaching?

[Henry]

Wanting them to win and complaining when they aren't winning are two different things, that was the point I was making. You are making them mutually inclusive, when they aren't. Wanting them to win does not mean you complain when they lose. One is the essence of fanhood, the other is just pettiness and an inability to accept your lack of control.

I keep seeing people write "I'm sick and tired of this" or "I'm done being patient", lol... ok, now what? What are you "done with" exactly? What are you going to do now? There's absolutely no point, as a fan, in saying those things other than saying them for the sake of complaining and whining. Nothing comes out of them except that. If you want to apply for a job with the team, or seek out a player/coach and let them know how you feel... maybe those phrases mean something. If not, I'm sorry, it's pathetic whining. That's all it is. Either that, or it's a display of the clear desire to root for a winning team exclusively.

I'd like an explanation as to how it can be construed as something else other than those two things. And if you answer "venting", that's the same pettiness I'm talking about. What are we, children that throw temper tantrums when things don't go our way? Judging by some of the posts here, that looks to be closest to the truth.

I'm not going to stop believing this team can make the playoffs until they're mathematically eliminated, even against all logic. You know why? Because, in life (and sports are obviously a part of that), "miracles" (really, the unexpected or what is perceived as abnormal) happen all the time. I don't need to be told constantly that we suck. If I want logic to be a part of my fanhood, then there are plenty of other teams who are much more logical to root for! That's not to say we can't discuss our shortcomings; reflect on losses; or question the decisions made by coaches/players, so please don't confuse what I'm saying with that idea, which seems to always happen. I'm talking about complaining or giving up hope specifically.

Interesting. Did you actually read the post I quoted when I said what I did?

It was full of 'STFU' and 'quit crying' and the like. I tend to respond to posts with the tone they themselves set. Before that post I was having a pretty civil discussion with people about the direction the team is taking, during which I several times added that I hoped things work out anyway.

But apparently I am not only supposed to hope for the best, but unquestionably EXPECT the best or I'm not a fan? Not only that, my lack of unwavering faith gives other posters free license to tell me to shut up and quit crying?

Sorry, I'm not going to start re-working my posts based on such criteria. You're just going to have to go ahead and think I'm not really a fan.

[Homercles82]

Shannahan said at the beginning of the season that the fans should have high expectations for the team this year because he did. You can tell in his pressers that he is fuming at the level of play. No, we have talent issues no doubt but we also have execution issues that are preventing us from playing as well as we should. I believe if we start executing, we could win 8 games this year. If not, we may finish 1-15.

Correct. Cooley said the same thing on Lavar and Dukes. The penalties are killing us.

[Oldfan]

Correct. Cooley said the same thing on Lavar and Dukes. The penalties are killing us.

Most penalties are caused when players try to cheat because they can't match up to a superior opponent. Orakpo caused three holding penalties in the Dallas game, for example. So, an excess of team penalties signals a lack of talent.

[Homercles82]

Most penalties are caused when players try to cheat because they can't match up to a superior opponent. Orakpo caused three holding penalties in the Dallas game, for example. So, an excess of team penalties signals a lack of talent.

I would say it is rather a lack of discipline and not talent.