2012 Comprehensive NFL Draft Database

[GWinSkins83]

Jenkins is a good corner, I don't dispute that.

At this point though, I'm not sure I would draft any corner before the first 20 picks, and I know I'd prefer to draft front seven players ahead of corners. Joe Haden is a great corner taken in the top ten and a shutdown player. But was he really all that much better than Devin McCourty who was taken much later? I'm not sure I believe in the concept of the franchise caliber shutdown corner. There are so many good ones in the NFL right now. And like you said earlier, the front 7 doesn't always win and that sometimes the OL wins--great corners sometimes blow coverages or they play good coverage and the QB & WR still win. And I mentioned this earlier but I think it bears repeating, Asomugha, Revis, Bailey, who are the great CBs of the league this decade, have all followed up elite seasons with subpar/mediocre ones at various points this decade. Corners are up and down, it's the nature of the position.

And I know you mentioned it earlier, that Andre Johnson touchdown has you worried about our corners but remember that was completed against Reed Doughty. If a secondary position needs to be upgraded to prevent those sorts of big passing plays, then shouldn't it be FS? Now if you wanted to argue for FS being a big need going forward, I'd actually agree with you.

Also, you mentioned stockpiling good corners to build a defense like the Jets, I wanted to respond that our defense is constructed more like Pittsburgh's than anyone else's. Pittsburgh has been getting it done with marginal CBs for a long time, but they've spent a ton of first and second round picks on defensive linemen and linebackers.

If I'm Shanahan why should I spend a high pick on a corner when I see mid-late round picks and UDFAs like Tramon Williams getting the job done at an elite level? Not only that, I'm drafting from a position of strength too, Deangelo Hall, Kevin Barnes, Brandyn Thompson, Dejon Gomes, and Josh Wilson all look like good players, none of whom limit your defense. They're all youngish too. We can afford to draft a middle round developmental guy with talent and have him sit for a couple of seasons in development, we don't have to go out and pick a guy in the first round who can start immediately.

You've made your case for Jenkins pretty well, and the one thing I like about him is that he's a three year starter already. But that move to division II because he got kicked off his team really bothers me. I don't really care that he smokes weed. I care that he kept getting arrested for it when he knew he was endangering his scholarship and potentially leaving his team out to dry.

This is a strong CB class too. For our purposes, the senior crop is deep with some really good players like Cliff Harris, Chase Minnifield, Coryell Judie, Omar Bolden, Alfonso Dennard, etc. Several of those guys could come here and develop into good starters, and some of them will slip into the middle round range. I'd rather see us spend our first and second round picks on guys like Alameda Ta'amu, Josh Chapman, Kheeston Randall, Courtney Upshaw, Travis Lewis, or Billy Wynn. Continuously upgrading the front seven also gives you a nice increasing return on what you've already invested in it previously by making the other linebackers' and linemen's jobs easier and strengthening your DL rotations. If we draft someone like Courtney Upshaw or Travis Lewis then it's going to make Orakpo and Kerrigan that much better, especially defending the run.

Our current corners are getting the job done so far, the weak part of our defense is up the middle where we don't really have a good NT after Cofield, weak ILBs, and little depth at safety. If we go out and draft something like Ta'amu or Chapman in the first and Travis Lewis in the second then I think you'll have a dominant defense with or without upgrading the cornerbacks.

Also this is a tip on how to format your posts. You're writing your arguments as one big paragraph which is harder to read and also harder to respond to using the quote feature. I suggest going through your posts after you've written them and break them up with paragraphs where you start each separate point you're making. See how mine is split up into a bunch of two and three line paragraphs? It's easier for people to pick out and respond to the separate arguments I make within a post.

I dont think we should draft Jenkins in the First either and yes we do need to build our defense like Steelers. But can I point out one thing. In the Steelers division they don't need a great CB because they dont go against great WRs. Im pretty sure if they had to go against some bona fide WRs they would address that too. But I do get what your saying. But this draft coming up have plenity of ILB, OLB, DE, and got NTs that is going to get pushed back in this draft. In some mock Tam'um and Chapman are going in the third and fourth rounds. They're also some good ILB that are going to be pushed back too. I mean you got 3 legid ILBS coming from Alabama only. DE I really dont know but we do Carriker who is young, Bowen who is young, Jenkins who is a rookie, Cofield can move around on the line. Its not like we short on talent out there and yes we can be deeper. But I also think we are in a different division and a whole different beast in the NFC. We have the better receivers in the conference. And we have to be ready for that for to compete. But yeah the front seven can make the back four look better than they are but I think we should want both making each other look good.

---------- Post added August-28th-2011 at 11:15 AM ----------

Ima look at some of Minnifield Cut ups because would be the ideal fit senior wise and local product. So I guess I'll check him out but I seen him going in the first or early second. So I dont know about that. Thats why I bring up Jenkins too cause maybe he will fall to the third over character issues.

[stevemcqueen1]

Speaking to the CB discussion going on right now, what are y'alls thoughts on CB Greg Reid out of Florida State? I do not see him listed on CBS sports 2012 CB Draft Prospects list.

I know he's only a junior and drafting him would be contrary to Steve's theory (which, by the way, I think is a GREAT theory coupled with the team captain idea - well thought out Steve!), but I remember a good amount of hype surrounding him at the beginning of last CFB season. But if I remember correctly, I do not think he had a stellar year last season.

Has anyone followed him enough to notice the strengths/flaws in his game? He is definitely someone I would like to watch this season.

Greg Reid shows up as the 10th ranked CB on CBS' 2013 CB list.

I like him personally, but I tend to favor ACC prospects a little more than I probably should. It comes from a higher level of familiarity.

I also like dynamic athletes at the CB position who can generate big plays from opportunistic ballhawking in zone coverages. I like that Reid comes out of a zone scheme and he's a TD return threat any time he gets an INT in the open field. I think our defense is predicated to generate and thrive off of these sorts of turnovers. Our CBs get beat occasionally, but if the front seven is generally successful in creating good leverage situations and our CBs aggressively break on balls in their zones, we're going to end up with a lot of picks and opportunities to score defensive TDs.

From that standpoint, Reid is a pretty nice fit.

He seems unlikely to declare early though given he can probably return to school in 2012 and be one of the top CBs in the 2013 class.

The theory of drafting seniors I've been thinking about isn't set in stone. I think that eventually this FO is going to draft an underclassman. But I'd guess that the conditions have to be right for him. He'd probably need to be a multi-year starter. A high number of starts has been a big trend for our draft picks so far (and I think it's a smart criteria). Second, you'll want to see some sort of peripheral awards and honors out of the prospect: team captain or school statistical records, first team all conference or player of the year awards, etc.

Also my gut tells me that you won't ever see this FO picking more than one or two juniors in a draft class.

I don't have a problem with passing on most juniors for seniors and targeting guys who were team captains, all conference academic teams, and multi-year starters. To me it speaks to the prospect's intangibles--his love of football, his work ethic, translating his talent into on field production, his maturity level, and his learning ability.

In the past I've tried to get a clue about a prospect's intangibles by watching interviews and reading rumors about them. I'm still going to watch interviews because I think you can discover a lot about a player's intelligence if they are a good communicator. But I'm also going to start paying more attention to awards won, captain status, academic achievement, and charitable contribution awards like the one Lowe's gives as a measure of intangibles. At the very least, number of career starts is going to become a big factor for how I consider prospects as a fit for us.

---------- Post added August-28th-2011 at 12:39 PM ----------

I dont think we should draft Jenkins in the First either and yes we do need to build our defense like Steelers. But can I point out one thing. In the Steelers division they don't need a great CB because they dont go against great WRs. Im pretty sure if they had to go against some bona fide WRs they would address that too. But I do get what your saying. But this draft coming up have plenity of ILB, OLB, DE, and got NTs that is going to get pushed back in this draft. In some mock Tam'um and Chapman are going in the third and fourth rounds. They're also some good ILB that are going to be pushed back too. I mean you got 3 legid ILBS coming from Alabama only. DE I really dont know but we do Carriker who is young, Bowen who is young, Jenkins who is a rookie, Cofield can move around on the line. Its not like we short on talent out there and yes we can be deeper. But I also think we are in a different division and a whole different beast in the NFC. We have the better receivers in the conference. And we have to be ready for that for to compete. But yeah the front seven can make the back four look better than they are but I think we should want both making each other look good.

---------- Post added August-28th-2011 at 11:15 AM ----------

Ima look at some of Minnifield Cut ups because would be the ideal fit senior wise and local product. So I guess I'll check him out but I seen him going in the first or early second. So I dont know about that. Thats why I bring up Jenkins too cause maybe he will fall to the third over character issues.

No doubt that it's nice to have good corners to disrupt an offense's timing. Jenkins is definitely a good corner who almost certainly would have been a first round pick this draft. I agree that if he's there in the third, you draft him because his talent advantage over the other available prospects would be overwhelming at that point. I don't know that he falls that far though. He's not going to get in trouble again this year so he's just going to go out, have a quiet season, and let his play do his talking for him. By the end of the season he'll have probably repaired his image and draft stock. Too bad he didn't declare for the Supp draft. He'd be a steal in the third.

I also agree that we have good defensive ends now with Bowen, Jenkins, and Cofield able to take snaps there + we already had Carriker. Darion Scott has been pretty good too, and in nickel situations Rob Jackson can play DE. I think we're weaker at NT and that is what I would look to fortify with a player like Ta'amu or Chapman. I've also seen Brandon Thompson out of Clemson ranked very high. As far as Ta'amu's and Chapman's draft stock goes, it's hard to say where they'll go right now. Mock's are going to fluctuate a lot early on. The best way is to trust your gut instinct on what round you think a prospect deserves to be taken in right now.

I look at Chapman and Ta'amu and think that Ta'amu deserves a first round grade, and that Chapman deserves a first to early second round grade. They're clean on character and injury history, if they make it through the year injury free then I think both will go by the middle of the second round. Courtney Upshaw is another player I really like, I see him getting late first and second round grades and going in the second of some mocks. I think he's an impact player. My gut tells me he'll be a first round pick if he stays injury free this season.

I would love a draft where our first three picks are:
Rd 1 - Upshaw
Rd 2 - Ta'amu/Chapman
Rd 3 - Jenkins

The problem is, when even the fans like us can tell when a player is really good, usually the NFL can too and those guys end up going a lot higher than mocks anticipate. It seems like it happens to me every year. J.J. Watt, Adrian Clayborn, Christian Ponder, and Aldon Smith were all players that I really liked and was hoping would slip on draft day, and all went earlier than they were projected to right before the draft.

Speaking of slipping, it seems like a lot of the top college CBs have been slipping on draft day. Amukamara fell pretty far. Jimmy Smith also fell all of the way to 27 when he was probably a top 15 talent. Then Brandon Harris fell all of the way to the end of the second round when he was a decent first round talent IMO. Aaron Williams went in the second and I thought he was a first round talent too.

There are a lot of good cornerbacks falling on draft day, I think that's another reason why you wait a bit on the position and see what comes your way towards the middle rounds.

I like Minnifield as a prospect and think he'll be a good draft value at the position. I see him as a first round caliber talent with a good size and speed combination.

The thing that I'm not crazy about is that he's not as big a playmaker as guys like Janoris Jenkins, Cliff Harris, or even Jayron Hosley. He's got 10 career interceptions which is fine IMO. But he has low career PBU numbers, with only 10 total and he has low tackle numbers. That says to me that he's not finding the ball very often and he's not the aggressive, playmaking type of player that we like for our defense. For instance, Jenkins has 25 career PBUs, and Cliff Harris had a ridiculous 25 the past two seasons. Running so much zone like we do, I want a guy who can read and react to break on the ball quickly and make plays. I'm not sure if that's Minnifield's style. I want to see him generate more plays on the ball this season before I'm completely sold on him.

[Dro89]

This is a strong CB class too. For our purposes, the senior crop is deep with some really good players like Cliff Harris, Chase Minnifield, Coryell Judie, Omar Bolden, Alfonso Dennard, etc. Several of those guys could come here and develop into good starters, and some of them will slip into the middle round range. I'd rather see us spend our first and second round picks on guys like Alameda Ta'amu, Josh Chapman, Kheeston Randall, Courtney Upshaw, Travis Lewis, or Billy Wynn. Continuously upgrading the front seven also gives you a nice increasing return on what you've already invested in it previously by making the other linebackers' and linemen's jobs easier and strengthening your DL rotations. If we draft someone like Courtney Upshaw or Travis Lewis then it's going to make Orakpo and Kerrigan that much better, especially defending the run.

Steve im with you Barring that the QB situation proves to be good.. But i think is also depends on where Ta'amu goes if he slipped to late 2nd i would trade up to get him then our Dline would be up there at the top imo.. we could dedicate the 1st round pick to say upshaw? Lewis may fall due to his Injury.

Id like to see us try and get Ta'mau and Lewis or Upshaw within the first 2 rounds (if the qb is ok.. if not we need to go QB first round and look for Chapman in the 2nd round and maybe trade back up in the 2nd for a slipping player maybe a Travis Lewis or a Donta Hightower).. I'd like to see us take advantage of maybe Ray Ray Armstrong.. we need to add depth to our Saftey position BADLY..

hopefully we will try and wheel and deal and get more picks to build depth for this team since that was one of the bad things he had last year and Previous years.

---------- Post added August-28th-2011 at 01:06 PM ----------

side note does this bother you guys?

Sources around the Oklahoma program have said that Lewis is a prima donna. He thinks that he should get big money and endorsements immediately when entering the NFL. That attitude could turn off a lot of teams, and Lewis needs to humble himself to not get himself taken off of multiple draft boards.

---------- Post added August-28th-2011 at 01:15 PM ----------

as of right now do you guys know what draft picks we have? we possibly lost what a 6th for Hightower? the rest should be..

1st
2nd
3rd
4th
4th
5th
7th

that about right?

[Dukes and Skins]

I kinda find that quote hard to believe Dro, the same Travis Lewis who when you watch the all access stuff is a very vocal team first leader. As for the picks I think thats correct as well

[stevemcqueen1]

Steve im with you Barring that the QB situation proves to be good.. But i think is also depends on where Ta'amu goes if he slipped to late 2nd i would trade up to get him then our Dline would be up there at the top imo.. we could dedicate the 1st round pick to say upshaw? Lewis may fall due to his Injury.

Id like to see us try and get Ta'mau and Lewis or Upshaw within the first 2 rounds (if the qb is ok.. if not we need to go QB first round and look for Chapman in the 2nd round and maybe trade back up in the 2nd for a slipping player maybe a Travis Lewis or a Donta Hightower).. I'd like to see us take advantage of maybe Ray Ray Armstrong.. we need to add depth to our Saftey position BADLY..

hopefully we will try and wheel and deal and get more picks to build depth for this team since that was one of the bad things he had last year and Previous years.

Sounds good to me. I really like watching Ta'amu play. He reminds me of having a lot of the good qualities of Phil Taylor, only with a better motor.

side note does this bother you guys?

That doesn't really bother me at all. I think the rumor mill isn't reliable, and citing unnamed sources doesn't lend the report a lot of credence. I think Travis Lewis actually has really clean character and that i's a plus in his favor. He's a team captain, won tons of awards, and a three time Academic All Big 12 selection. You can't get all of that without being a hard worker and smart guy.

as of right now do you guys know what draft picks we have? we possibly lost what a 6th for Hightower? the rest should be..

1st
2nd
3rd
4th
4th
5th
7th

that about right?

We got two 6th rounders from the McNabb deal, I think the 6th we traded Arizona is one of them, so we should still have our own 6th this year. Other than that, I think that list looks correct.

[GWinSkins83]

Sounds good to me. I really like watching Ta'amu play. He reminds me of having a lot of the good qualities of Phil Taylor, only with a better motor.


That doesn't really bother me at all. I think the rumor mill isn't reliable, and citing unnamed sources doesn't lend the report a lot of credence. I think Travis Lewis actually has really clean character and that i's a plus in his favor. He's a team captain, won tons of awards, and a three time Academic All Big 12 selection. You can't get all of that without being a hard worker and smart guy.



We got two 6th rounders from the McNabb deal, I think the 6th we traded Arizona is one of them, so we should still have our own 6th this year. Other than that, I think that list looks correct.

I know people dont like this but we should trade Cooley for a 3rd or 4th. Then pull what we did last year and trade down after we get a QB in the first.

[Dukes and Skins]

I know people dont like this but we should trade Cooley for a 3rd or 4th. Then pull what we did last year and trade down after we get a QB in the first.

Right now theres no way we get a 3rd or 4th for Chris. Best case scenario is that he comes back week one plays very well and then we could deal him, but honestly I dont see him going anywhere

[Dro89]

QB
Landry Jones
Andrew Luck
Matthew Barkley (hes going to Seattle signed sealed delivered imo)

NT
Brandon Thompson (do you guys see NT in this guy?)
Alameda Ta'amu
Josh Chapman

ILB
Manti Te'o (if he comes out)
Don'ta Hightower
Vontaze Burfict (pretty sure he comes out)
Luke Kuechly
Courtney Upshaw
Travis Lewis
Tank Carder

i see most of us are pretty set on either a QB/NT/ILB with QB and ILB being two of the positions of most need..

[Floodzone004]

Upshaw intrigues me so much. If Haslett really wants to get experimental, he'd be right up our alley.

[Dukes and Skins]

Upshaw intrigues me so much. If Haslett really wants to get experimental, he'd be right up our alley.

Honestly with Haslett Upshaw would be one of the guys Haslett could find a way to use him on the field. We've seen that Haslett doesn't stick to a base 3-4 D and will show many different looks and use different combinations. Right now getting Upshaw and Ta'amu would be sick to the D but again thats all dependent on QB as well

[Floodzone004]

Honestly with Haslett Upshaw would be one of the guys Haslett could find a way to use him on the field. We've seen that Haslett doesn't stick to a base 3-4 D and will show many different looks and use different combinations. Right now getting Upshaw and Ta'amu would be sick to the D but again thats all dependent on QB as well

Exactly, I think Haslett was more a victim of his personnel. We've already seen just in this preseason what he will do with the people he wanted. If Haslett wanted Upshaw it'd be like Shanny wanting a certain RB, clearly there will be a distinct plan to use him.

[GWinSkins83]

Right now theres no way we get a 3rd or 4th for Chris. Best case scenario is that he comes back week one plays very well and then we could deal him, but honestly I dont see him going anywhere

I know just wish we could. Ok than that I hope we can make something happen where we can get more picks for this draft.

[ConnSKINS26]

I know just wish we could. Ok than that I hope we can make something happen where we can get more picks for this draft.

The cool thing to me is that I'm now confident that even if we don't make a single trade between now and draft day, I know that we CAN pick up extra picks mid-draft if that's our prerogative.

[Dro89]

would be something crazy if beck and/or Rex played well enough and we took Upshaw/Lewis this year and then went BPA and landed Te'o

[Dukes and Skins]

I know just wish we could. Ok than that I hope we can make something happen where we can get more picks for this draft.

I understand that man but like Conn said we have shown to be able to acquire those picks that are valuable in the mid rounds which is just a testament of what a change our FO is now