Romney/Ryan Lose 2012 Election Thread

[ncr2h]

Does the IRS also define wages (so-called "earned income") as income, and collect both income and payroll taxes, based on it?

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Or here's a different one:

Mitt Romney (And, I'm willing to bet, you) has stated that 47% of Americans don't pay any income tax.

1. Is this statement (that 47% of Americans don;t pay income tax) true?
2. Is Mitt Romney a member of that 47%?

FICA taxes are not an income tax. They are a tax on gross receipts. Income is your receipts less expenses, deductions, exemptions, and credits. Your employer withholds FICA taxes on all payments to you regardless of your expenses, deductions, exemptions, or credits. It is therefore a tax on your gross receipts from employment.

Furthermore, FICA taxes are not deductible on your federal income tax return. Therefore, the people who pay only FICA taxes can cry me a river. When I earn $100, not only do I only get to keep $85 of it due to FICA taxes, but the full $100 counts toward my earned income on my federal return. Therefore, FICA taxes are more onerous for income taxpayers than for nonpayers because of the nondeductibility.

Finally, the purpose of FICA taxes is to fund 2 very specific federal programs, and the argument here is not whether payers of FICA taxes are entitled to the benefits from the programs they have paid into. The argument is whether people who only pay FICA are entitled to the benefits from programs funded through the federal income tax. In my opinion, the answer would clearly be no if the government were actually keeping FICA taxes in a lock box type system. Since that's not the case, and FICA taxes are actually used to fund the general operations (and soon to be vice-versa), then maybe there's an argument to be made that FICA payers have earned other benefits. In my opinion, that's still pretty weak.

Capital gains are an income tax. First of all, capital gains on assets held for less than 1 year are taxed at the individual's ordinary income tax rate. Second of all, all capital gains earned by corporations are taxed at that corporation's marginal income tax rate regardless of whether they are short term or long term. Third, losses from capital assets can offset ordinary income up to certain thresholds, with carryforwards (just like net operating losses from ordinary income can be carried forward). Fourth, when the income tax was originally established in 1913, all capital gains were taxed as ordinary income. There are plenty of other areas of the code in which congress has given preferential treatment to certain types of assets - I don't understand why this preferential treatment should exclude something from being called an income tax.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

If I got a refund on my income taxes last year, does that mean I didn't pay income tax? I'm part of the 47%?

Because I did get a refund last year, but I paid taxes. And I don't think I'm a victim or entitled to anything.

[Corcaigh]

To me it looks like he is saying that 47% of the population doesn't pay income taxes so they won't listen to his tax plan

Whatever the precise number is, a significant number of people are exempt from income tax and so he is correct that these people won't be persuaded much by arguments of lower taxes. I'd give him slack if he was trying to make this argument in identifying what his messaging priorities should be. "Inelegantly articulated" I'd accept if this was all he said.

and that those 47% take no personal responsibility.

This is where he goes gaga, and completely undermines any merit of his previous point.

There are lots of reasons why people don't pay income tax. Labeling them ALL as victims who lack personal responsibility is nuts.

Furthermore, the 47% pay the taxes they owe and not a penny more. Just like Mitt.

[The Evil Genius]

If I got a refund on my income taxes last year, does that mean I didn't pay income tax? I'm part of the 47%?

Because I did get a refund last year, but I paid taxes. And I don't think I'm a victim or entitled to anything.

Here's a sample list of Mitten's freeloading 47%

U.S. soldiers in combat

U.S. soldiers’ pay while in a combat zone is not subject to federal income tax.

Firefighters

A firefighter with the average wage of $45,000 with a stay-at-home spouse and two kids.

U.S. Air Force Staff Sergeants

An Air Force military police staff sergeant with 8 years of service—who earns basic pay of $34,723—with a spouse earning $10,000 through part-time work and at least two kids.

Steelworkers

A steelworker making the average wage of $45,000 with a stay-at-home spouse and two kids.

Security Guards

A security guard making the average wage of $23,900 married to a bank teller making an average wage of $24,500, with three kids.

High School Teachers

A high school teacher making the average wage of $54,000 who is the primary source of income and has at least three kids.

Police Officers

A New Mexico patrolman with a starting salary of $39,000 married to a part-time child care worker with at least two kids.

Clergy Members

A clergy member whose income of $44,140 is the primary source of income in a family with a spouse and two kids.

[Corcaigh]

If I got a refund on my income taxes last year, does that mean I didn't pay income tax? I'm part of the 47%?

Because I did get a refund last year, but I paid taxes. And I don't think I'm a victim or entitled to anything.

Did you pay Federal income taxes after your refund? If so, I don't think anyone is making the argument that those who overpaid income tax are victims or believe in entitlement.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Did you pay Federal income taxes after your refund? If so, I don't think anyone is making the argument that those who overpaid income tax are victims or believe in entitlement.

What do you mean did I pay federal income taxes after my refund? I guess not... I got a refund. I didn't then send them a check.

I paid payroll taxes, obviously.

[Corcaigh]

What do you mean did I pay federal income taxes after my refund? I guess not... I got a refund. I didn't then send them a check.

I paid payroll taxes, obviously.

By 'after' I was talking about net.

Did you overpay Federal income taxes in the tax year that led to a refund? Or did you have some big deductions, like a dressage horse.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

By 'after' I was talking about net.

Did you overpay Federal income taxes in the tax year that led to a refund? Or did you have some big deductions, like a dressage horse.

I guess I don't know the answer to that. I have the mortgage interest deduction which I think is significant.

[Corcaigh]

I guess I don't know the answer to that. I have the mortgage interest deduction which I think is significant.

What? On your Federal tax return there would have been lines saying 'what you owe', and 'what you paid'. Was the 'what you owe' line zero?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

What? On your Federal tax return there would have been lines saying 'what you owe', and 'what you paid'. Was the 'what you owe' line zero?

I have an accountant. Let me see if i can find it.

[MattFancy]

Enjoy: http://www.uproxx.com/tv/2012/09/mit...ey-daily-show/

[Corcaigh]

I have an accountant. Let me see if i can find it.

You might want to read documents that you sign and submit to the IRS in the future.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Enjoy: http://www.uproxx.com/tv/2012/09/mit...ey-daily-show/

Videos are up
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...age-to-the-47-

"A family making $50,000 per year, in other words the same amount of money it costs to see Mitt Romney on them in person."
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tu...ire-gaffemaker

[The Evil Genius]

The problem with Mitten's statement, as everyone that's edumacated knows, is that unless you live totally off the grid, you pay some form of taxes almost every single day of your life.

Be it...payroll taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, property taxes, etc.

To honestly claim that 47% of the voting population doesn't pay taxes (yes, he said INCOME but lets know pretend that INCOME taxes are the sole source of revenue for DC) is either hyperbole, stupidity, or both.

---------- Post added September-19th-2012 at 08:08 AM ----------

You might want to read documents that you sign and submit to the IRS in the future.

I hope you're be sarcastic. I know TSF was.

[Rdskns2000]

Peggy Noonan gets it:

http://blogs.wsj.com/peggynoonan/201...-intervention/

Only partially, she hasn't fully accepted the fact the election is over,


There is nothing Mitt can do. The die has been cast. Mitt has been defined and he's defining himself everyday. Mitt Romney is the most unappealing presidential candidate ever. Say what you want about Mcgovern and Goldwater but they had their supporters and they had strong convictions. Romney has no real support or any strong convictions.


If Romney somehow pulls the upset, might as well look to 2016 and the Democratic candidates. Romney will be yet another failed president. Romney's winning only means people elected him to stop anymore of OBama and that's it. That's a sad reason to vote for someone and it won't result in anything good happening.