Romney/Ryan Lose 2012 Election Thread

[Larry]

Oh the irony....

While our founding fathers fought for liberty and read the words of Lock, and the basis for the ideology has been around for some time, modern libertarianism is something else entirely. Ask a dozen libertarians off the street who Lock is and see what kind of response you get. Modern libertarianism is tied more closely to Rand than the roots of "liberty" that came before. That's a fact.

Oh the irony.

Make a completely untrue claim about libertarianism.

Get called on it.

Respond by putting the word "modern" in front of libertarianism, double and re-double down on your claims (still without support), and loudly announce "That's a fact."

Let's test your completely unfounded claim, shall we?

I don't know about "a dozen libertarians on the street". Far as I know, they don't wear signs. (And, frankly, I suspect that if you were to go out and find a bunch of libertarians, and ask them to justify why they believe what they do, that their biggest response would be "None of your business".) (Libertarians are funny, that way. )

But, here on ES, I'm aware of at least two libertarians. Myself and SnyderShrugged. (I think there are others. But I confess that I don't keep a political alignment scorecard in my head, so I don't know who the others are.)

Now, SS and I probably disagree like 90% of the time, in here. It's downright hostile, often, between us. So you can't exactly try to claim that the two of us represent some tiny, fringe element of libertarianism. (We might represent two tiny fringes, but definitely not one.)

And it wouldn't surprise me if neither if us has so much as read Ayn Rand.

Me, I'll tell you that I first heard of libertarianism in high school, from a classroom assignment reading a section of John Stewart Mill's On Liberty. (It made a big enough impression that I actually still remember the title of the reading assignment. Only other thing I'm certain that I read in High School was Romeo and Juliet.

An that's my point. So unless you are going to argue that Rand was a sane rational person full of wonderful ideas that will save the world, I'll stand by my point. MODERN libertarianism is a complete fantasy with no basis in reality.

Ah, got it.

You hereby demand that I must either "argue that Rand was a sane rational person full of wonderful ideas that will save the world", or else regard that your (completely unsupported) claim that "MODERN libertarianism is a complete fantasy with no basis in reality".

----------

Tell you what. I can play that game, too.

Unless you want to argue that you pull; bombastic statements completely out of your Philly, and then attack people when they point out the fact that your "fact" is completely untrue, then I will stand by my point. Your post was completely untrue. And I've proven it.

But hey, thanks for assuming I'm ignorant and once again side tracking one of my statements in an attempt to show how smart you are.

Don't want people pointing out that your claims aren't true? Don't make them.

And responding to the statement that you made is not "side tracking one of my statements".

---------- Post added September-20th-2012 at 04:45 PM ----------

Q: What do you think of the Libertarian movement? [FHF: “The Moratorium on Brains,” 1971]

AR: All kinds of people today call themselves “libertarians,” especially something calling itself the New Right, which consists of hippies, except that they’re anarchists instead of collectivists. But of course, anarchists are collectivists. Capitalism is the one system that requires absolute objective law, yet they want to combine capitalism and anarchism. That is worse than anything the New Left has proposed. It’s a mockery of philosophy and ideology. They sling slogans and try to ride on two bandwagons. They want to be hippies, but don’t want to preach collectivism, because those jobs are already taken. But anarchism is a logical outgrowth of the anti-intellectual side of collectivism. I could deal with a Marxist with a greater chance of reaching some kind of understanding, and with much greater respect. The anarchist is the scum of the intellectual world of the left, which has given them up. So the right picks up another leftist discard. That’s the Libertarian movement.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServ...s_libertarians

Is it just me, or does that response say to you, too?

[Predicto]

"Libertarian" is a form of self identification. Larry has no monopoly on its meaning, nor does MadMike, nor does SnyderShrugged.

Mad Mike's description of Koch Brothers-style libertarianism has some validity. Don't dismiss it out of hand just because it doesn't match your own self image of your version of libertarianism.

As an aside, I guarantee you that SnyderShrugged has read Ayn Rand. In fact, as I recall, he used to use an Ayn Rand quote as his signature. To his credit, he grew up and realized what an empty philosophy she represented. I wish Paul Ryan had done the same.

[skinsmarydu]

On someone else's dime?

I believe in equal opportunity,not results

I believe in today's times, it should be shared opportunity, which makes it equal.
For which you are not willing to contribute. Good for you. Stand that high ground...makes you seem so much more important than anyone else.

[Buford]

"Libertarian" is a form of self identification. Larry has no monopoly on its meaning, nor does MadMike, nor does SnyderShrugged.

.

Well, since nobody has the brains (who also has the money) to do this.....I'm taking ownership through squatters rights on Bull Moose Progressive.

If you guys want to use it, talk to me....or this mild gent.

[Larry]

But, now, the reason I actually came into this thread.

I decided to put this into the Romney thread, even though it has Obama in the title, because it's about what the Republicans are doing.

Yahoo: GOP Senators Hammer Obama

(I'm inserting some comments, in red)

More than 30 Senate Republicans, who have spent the last four years unanimously filibustering every single piece of legislation in the entire Congress, took to the Senate floor this morning in back-to-back coordinated speeches with attacks aimed at President Obama and the Democratically-led Senate.

The speeches were one part airing of grievances, one part campaign rhetoric, in a not-so-veiled attempt to influence the message as lawmakers go back to their districts next week. This could be the final day the Senate is open for business before the election.

One part that really jumped out at me was:

Sen. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, who was one of 46 (out of 46) Republicans who, 2 months ago, voted against passing a tax cut for all Americans, (well, all Americans who pay income taxes),, called on Senate Democrats to not take recess until progress is made on the so-called fiscal cliff, the battle over taxes and spending, which needs to be resolved before the end of the year.

[SnyderShrugged]

"Libertarian" is a form of self identification. Larry has no monopoly on its meaning, nor does MadMike, nor does SnyderShrugged.

Mad Mike's description of Koch Brothers-style libertarianism has some validity. Don't dismiss it out of hand just because it doesn't match your own self image of your version of libertarianism.

As an aside, I guarantee you that SnyderShrugged has read Ayn Rand. In fact, as I recall, he used to use an Ayn Rand quote as his signature. To his credit, he grew up and realized what an empty philosophy she represented. I wish Paul Ryan had done the same.

It may surprise you that I NEVER was a fan of Objectivism nor Rand as a human being. I was simply a HUGE fan of some of her novels (and not all of them at that). I actually loved the quote I used to have in my sig, but I found that confused folks here into believing I liked her and not just the book she wrote.

[Larry]

"Libertarian" is a form of self identification. Larry has no monopoly on its meaning, nor does MadMike, nor does SnyderShrugged.

Perhaps the distinction is that I'm not claiming to label all libertarians, or libertarianism.

I seem to recall that, when someone attempts to make a claim about an entire group, the posting of a single exception is sufficient to disprove the assertion.

[Mad Mike]

"Libertarian" is a form of self identification. Larry has no monopoly on its meaning, nor does MadMike, nor does SnyderShrugged.

Mad Mike's description of Koch Brothers-style libertarianism has some validity. Don't dismiss it out of hand just because it doesn't match your own self image of your version of libertarianism.

As an aside, I guarantee you that SnyderShrugged has read Ayn Rand. In fact, as I recall, he used to use an Ayn Rand quote as his signature. To his credit, he grew up and realized what an empty philosophy she represented. I wish Paul Ryan had done the same.

Thank you for injecting some sanity. I know I have no monopoly on Libertarianism's meaning. I was just commenting on the the majority, many of whom have no idea who Ayne Rand is but are influenced by those who do. Larry likes to play contrarian to almost anything. Sometimes I find it amusing. Other times, not so much.

And Larry... You need to get outside more. This board is distorting your view of the real world. I dare say the average IQ on this board is WAY above the national average. Even the dimmest bulbs who have been on this board for any length of time are probably smarter and more educated than the norm. I dare say that's why most of us come to this place. Because we cant find many people in the "real world" who can hold an intelligent, informed conversation on so many subjects.

[Rdskns2000]

Well, there's only one Libertarian candidate still out there:

http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front

[Larry]

Well, there's only one Libertarian candidate still out there:

http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/front

I think the picture reminds me of Harrison Ford as John Ryan.

[chipwhich]

And Larry... You need to get outside more. This board is distorting your view of the real world. I dare say the average IQ on this board is WAY above the national average. Even the dimmest bulbs who have been on this board for any length of time are probably smarter and more educated than the norm. I dare say that's why most of us come to this place. Because we cant find many people in the "real world" who can hold an intelligent, informed conversation on so many subjects.

It's called having skin in the game. If you don't have skin in the game it's easy to throw stones.

[Larry]

It's called having skin in the game. If you don't have skin in the game it's easy to throw stones.

Yes, that's another slogan the GOP has told people to use to try to say untrue things, too.

Which brings us back to the topic.

ASSUMING that the claim (which I have yet to see supported) that Romney didn't pay any INCOME tax, is true, then does HE have "skin in the game"?t

Or does the "skin in the game" slogan only apply to eople who don't pay income tax, because they don't have much money?

[chipwhich]

Or does the "skin in the game" slogan only apply to eople who don't pay income tax, because they don't have much money?

Skin in the game applies to working people. Do you have skin in the game???? I haven't heard the GOP ask that question but you can provide a link

[skinsmarydu]

Yes, that's another slogan the GOP has told people to use to try to say untrue things, too.

Which brings us back to the topic.

ASSUMING that the claim (which I have yet to see supported) that Romney didn't pay any INCOME tax, is true, then does HE have "skin in the game"?t

Or does the "skin in the game" slogan only apply to eople who don't pay income tax, because they don't have much money?

See, when I try to make these points, people on this here board have bashed the **** outta me. That's why I've laid off lately. Maybe my debate letter skills are diminishing, but I know I can make points bigger than 6 or 7 words meant to just rile someone else up.
I was advised to stop arguing with the idiot. (singular, not plural). I have.
And I have to give you kudos, Larry, for continuing the fight. We all want liberty and freedom...I don't understand why some people argue against what they think they're fighting for.

[chipwhich]

See, when I try to make these points, people on this here board have bashed the **** outta me. That's why I've laid off lately. Maybe my debate letter skills are diminishing, but I know I can make points bigger than 6 or 7 words meant to just rile someone else up.
I was advised to stop arguing with the idiot. (singular, not plural). I have.
And I have to give you kudos, Larry, for continuing the fight. We all want liberty and freedom...I don't understand why some people argue against what they think they're fighting for.

Not sure who on this board might argue with you....given the board is left swayed...not sure if you are insinuating me

As far as having skin in the game, you must have a job and have to deal with this nonsense to have an opinion....IMO.