NYTs: Video Said to Show Marines Urinating on Taliban Corpses

[Spearfeather]

Nice piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...uwP_story.html

a desperate attempt by confused young men to convince themselves that they haven’t just committed their first murder — that they have simply shot some coyotes on the back 40.

That's an interesting choice of words by the writer.

[twa]

That's an interesting choice of words by the writer.

You were expecting better of a Sebastian?

He did use kill earlier and in his defense he used murder as what they are attempting to reject within their own psyche.....the writer is attempting some rationalizations of his own

[Spearfeather]

You were expecting better of a Sebastian?

He did use kill earlier .....

Are you referring to here:

That particular fighter would never again be able to kill an American soldier

I do see what you're saying twa...with coyotes on one side of the scale and murder on the other side, I would just think murder would be removed from the scale in a combat situation.

[twa]

I do not think the writer was associating it with murder EXCEPT the possible linkage within the servicemembers own mind

the usage of kill here demonstrates that imo

""They are very clear about the fact that society trains them to kill, orders them to kill and then balks at anything that suggests they have dehumanized the enemy they have killed.

But of course they have dehumanized the enemy — otherwise they would have to face the enormous guilt and anguish of killing other human beings. Rather than demonstrate a callous disregard for the enemy, this awful incident might reveal something else: a desperate attempt by confused young men to convince themselves that they haven’t just committed their first murder ""

I believe he is using possible murder linkage only in the individuals mind itself.......but I can understand you taking offense to the word murder being used at all in reference to this instance.

[Larry]

Remembering a line from Apocalypse Now:

We train children to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "****" on their airplanes, because it's obscene.

[twa]

It is a crazy world Larry, I feel for them and the families and pray

dealing with this kind of inhumanity can grind your gears

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...l-survive.html
The largely illiterate boys are fed a diet of anti-Western and anti-Afghan government propaganda until they are prepared to kill, he said. But the boys are also assured that they will miraculously survive the devastation they cause.

"The worst part is that these children don't think that they are killing themselves," said the official. "They are often given an amulet containing Koranic verses. Mullahs tell them, 'When this explodes you will survive and God will help you survive the fire. Only the infidels will be killed, you will be saved and your parents will go to paradise'.






I hope that didn't offend anyone though

[KAOSkins]

I don't think you did. This thread drifted into a very interesting aspect of the situation. It's good for people to see the situation framed that way.

[Popeman38]

Nice piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...uwP_story.html

Sebastion Junger is himself a living contradiction. So I take his words lightly, since he speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

[Larry]

Recalling a piece that we read for the Ethics class I took, a while back, in the section on the application of Ethics to the question of torture.

And one of the pieces had a perspective that I thought was similar to where this thread is going.

I'm going to relate what I remember of the piece. (I aced the class, so now I don't have to remember it, any more.) I might try to go look up the author, so I can give attribution.

But the article dealt with the "ticking time bomb" scenario, and the way it's used to justify why we need to have the ability to torture people, to extract vital information from them, to save lives.

And the author pointed out that, if that's your mission, to be prepared to torture people in the "ticking time bomb" situation, then you had to have the torture "infrastructure", so to speak, in place and ready to use, in anticipation of that need. That, if your intention is to be prepared, just in case you need to get the location of a bomb out of somebody, in a matter of hours, then you had to have all of the things you would need, standing by, in advance.

And this means that one of the things you need is, you need at least one skilled torturer ready, in case you need him. He needs to be trained and ready to go. (You probably need more than one. They'll need to be ready to work shifts, so you can have 24 hour coverage. You'll likely need to have them in more than one location, since you don't know where this person would be needed.)

And, the author's point was that:

If you ignore the question of what torture does to the victim.
If you ignore speculation on the possibility that, once the "torture infrastructure" is in place, then it makes it easier to justify using it.

. . . training people to be torturers, getting them mentally prepared to do that, putting people into the mental state where they are capable of doing that, harms the torturers. Even if their number never comes up, and they never actually have to torture anybody.

That, in order to mentally prepare someone to be a torturer, you not only have to train this person to dehumanize their victims, you have to dehumanize the torturer. For example, you have to switch off his conscience. (Thus, in turn, making him the ideal candidate to commit crimes of compliance).

----------

It was the first discussion on the ethics of torture that I'd read, that actually argued that attempting to make torture acceptable harmed the torturers.

And that's how I saw it kind of related to this discussion. The idea that, say, the war in Afghanistan isn't just harming people in Afghanistan, and it isn't just harming the soldiers who get wounded or whatever. But the idea that war harms the winners, too.

[skinsmarydu]

I still can't believe it happened. It's a complete disgrace and media disaster. And we wonder why some of the world hates the U.S.

[twa]

Actually you can simply recruit those already in that state Larry, no need to make one,there are quite a few walking among ya.

the best comment I've found


As a combat veteran myself, and approximately the same age as these young men when I served, it is a breakdown of humanity. and their core values. These young men are constantly at arms their psyche's constantly under siege and the only constraints are the theoretical professionalism and civility fostered as prime elements of the Corps - Duty, Honor, Country.

In this case, it is obvious that these men were out in the field much longer than they should have been. Their leadership failed them in not recognizing the stress levels and the value of having them out of the field and standing them down for a few days to decompress. I was a victim of this myself - two tours, constantly volunteering for patrols, always fearing death but reveling in the adrenalin rush of combat never recognizing the dichotomy of fearing death but wanting to kill as many "gooks" as I could. I became, and actually at one point viewed myself as, Death's agent on Earth immune to all feeling and caring about another human being's life. "They" became just so much meat on the ground to count up, report and move on to do it all over again.

I paid a huge price for that experience and fortunately, the bill was paid in full and life returned to normal. These men will pay a similar price at some point in addition to military justice for a momentary lapse of judgment, deportment and character. They don't deserve anything more than an Article 15, a reduction in rank and pay for a month or two, but it will become something larger than themselves. Fortunately, veterans and fellow Marines who have been there have their backs and perhaps it will work out so they don't have their futures destroyed by overly PC officers and politicians.

Alex Lemon repeated for truth....

"“Alex Lemons, a Marine scout sniper during the fierce fighting in the Iraqi city of Falluja in 2004, said that on several occasions he encountered American troops who either urinated on insurgent bodies or manipulated them for photographs, like putting them in ridiculous poses. While he called such behavior disgusting, he also said it could be cathartic.

“‘I’ve never spat on a dead body or urinated on one, but I’ve certainly screamed at a dead body because they’ve taken a friend’s life,’ said Mr. Lemons, who left the Marine Corps in 2008.”

There's your truth concreteblue - the WHOLE truth.
#5 Tom Francis
http://maggiesfarm.anotherdotcom.com....html#comments

[Buford]

I know people love to blame each other. Its the American way. What I'd love to read is what is being done to stop this from happening again. Is it the youth and immaturity of people? Is it the stresses they are under? What is the solution?

[Larry]

I know people love to blame each other. Its the American way. What I'd love to read is what is being done to stop this from happening again. Is it the youth and immaturity of people? Is it the stresses they are under? What is the solution?

I think that the post twa made pointed at part of it. That part of the unit pride that militaries attempt to instill in their recruits is to give them something to hang on to. A sense of "I don't do things like that, because I'm better than that".

[Buford]

well, that should be one goal. To make that something a person should be ashamed of. Not something funny as long as they aren't caught.

[KAOSkins]

well, that should be one goal. To make that something a person should be ashamed of. Not something funny as long as they aren't caught.

That's civilized behavior you're talking about Buford and when you have to live uncivilized for long periods of time in order to keep yourself and your friends alive you become uncivilized as well. I'm sure it was a perfect storm situation where there was just the right mix of individual personalities and circumstances that made it acceptable. I doubt many of them would have thought back 30 years later and have been proud of it (if they hadn't got caught) though maybe one or two would. I'm not attempting to excuse it or saying my take is all there is just how I figure it must have gone down.