President Barack Obama/Vice-President Joe Biden Re-elected to 2nd Term Thread

[Kilmer17]

Here's the thing: I don't know anything about them. There are no facts about them to review.

Yes, I believe they are relevant. I believe Mitt Romney to be basically an honest guy. I can see a dilemma for him in that a complicated tax return could easily contain legitimate things that can be twisted and unfarily used against him. People simply can't be trusted to behave like responsible adults.

But in truth, if I found out that for several years he paid no taxes at all, then I want to know why he thinks that is OK. If I discover he took advantage of offshore bank accounts to hide vast sums, or questionable loopholes that exist only because lobbyists buy them, I want to know whether he has plans to close the gaps or leave them for the wealthy to exploit. It's like him hiding his earnings as "carried interest" instead of wages. Its legal, so I'm not overly worked up that he did it. But its blatantly unfair to other taxpayers and I want to know what he plans to do about it. My guess is he plans to do nothing, but if I'm wrong then it matters (in a positive way) to me. So that's a long-winded way of saying yes I believe them to be relevant, possibly in a good way.

I think he took a massive loss when the economy tanked, and as a result, carried the loss ahead and actually did have a year where he paid no taxes. For a very good reason. But it would get spun and twisted by the leftwing media to the point it WOULD be a detriment to his campaign.

[Larry]

I think he took a massive loss when the economy tanked, and as a result, carried the loss ahead and actually did have a year where he paid no taxes. For a very good reason.

It's certainly a believable theory. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the crash had a much larger effect on the "investment class" than it did on everybody else. (I understand that that's actually common: That economic downturns almost always hit the top brackets a lot more than the bottom.)

Although, there are some observations I can make, extrapolating on that theory.

One is that, yeah, Mitt probably took a huge loss in the crash (at least on paper.) But so did a lot of "little people", too. And they didn't get to exempt themselves from all taxes, in '09, because well, they lost a lot of money, on paper, in '07. They got kicked out of their home, and still had to pay taxes, anyway.

Another is that, if the truth is that Romney's income in '09 was offset by losses from '07, then one simple way of at least reducing the political damage from that fact, is to release the tax returns from '09 and from '07.

(Of course, if he does that, then the people will be able to see whether he really lost piles of money in '07, or did he simply lose a lot of money on paper.)

[Tulane Skins Fan]

The polls say otherwise regarding the state of the race.

As for the tax issue. I think Obama's stance on what he will do with taxes in the US is far more important than how much money itt Romney made as a private citizen, or how he invested his money to protect the most. It's not a bad thing, it shows how smart he is.

I am assuming you are talking about the head to head polls. I don't think that's a good indicator. We are in the worst economy in 70 years, and we keep getting bad news on it, as recently as this week. Yet, the polls are flat. Why?

If Bain and the tax returns meant nothing to voters, then you'd see Romney surging right now, in my opinion.

The tax records aren't about "how much money he makes," but how he makes it and how he takes advantages of this "unfair" tax code.

[JimboDaMan]

I think he took a massive loss when the economy tanked, and as a result, carried the loss ahead and actually did have a year where he paid no taxes. For a very good reason. But it would get spun and twisted by the leftwing media to the point it WOULD be a detriment to his campaign.

Sounds to me like your complaint is not that they are irrelevant, it's that you believe irrelevant parts of them would be used against him. If the returns came out and he simply paid his basic tax-bracket share I'm guessing you would find it relevant.

Getting back to Obama, the data shows that the President does not take more vacations than previous presidents and in fact takes significantly fewer than some recnt Republicans. The business of lavish vacations at public expense is also a falsehood. My question was whether somebody with those facts easily at his fingertips chose to believe the falsehood.

[Kilmer17]

I am assuming you are talking about the head to head polls. I don't think that's a good indicator. We are in the worst economy in 70 years, and we keep getting bad news on it, as recently as this week. Yet, the polls are flat. Why?

If Bain and the tax returns meant nothing to voters, then you'd see Romney surging right now, in my opinion.

The tax records aren't about "how much money he makes," but how he makes it and how he takes advantages of this "unfair" tax code.

I dont think Bain and tax returns matters, and I dont think the economy matters right now to anyone except the bases. The needle isnt moving because the only people paying attention are the ones already entrenched in their positions.

Is Romney doing something that everyone else is incapable of doing? Has he found a loophole that no one else can use?

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 10:34 AM ----------

Sounds to me like your complaint is not that they are irrelevant, it's that you believe irrelevant parts of them would be used against him. If the returns came out and he simply paid his basic tax-bracket share I'm guessing you would find it relevant.

Getting back to Obama, the data shows that the President does not take more vacations than previous presidents and in fact takes significantly fewer than some recnt Republicans. The business of lavish vacations at public expense is also a falsehood. My question was whether somebody with those facts easily at his fingertips chose to believe the falsehood.

The issue with vacations is not that he takes them, or that they are expensive. The issue is his own staff says his plate is too full to solve certain issues. It's not hard to see why that looks bad.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I dont think Bain and tax returns matters, and I dont think the economy matters right now to anyone except the bases. The needle isnt moving because the only people paying attention are the ones already entrenched in their positions.

Is Romney doing something that everyone else is incapable of doing? Has he found a loophole that no one else can use?

The economy doesn't matter to voters? I see your general premise that not everyone is paying attention now, or that politicos watch this stuff more than a regular citizen. But, people are just getting introduced to Romney now, and the economy and the tax returns issue is something people will consider.

Now, are you asking me to opine on the merits of the opinions that come from this? I don't think everyone can take advantage of the tax loopholes that Romney does. That's the point. The middle class doesn't make money the way that the rich do, and they don't have the ability to use capital gains, off shore accounts, carried interest, etc., like the rich do.

So, the answer is that yes he is doing something that a lot of people are incapable of doing. And no he has not found a loophole that anyone can use. He's found a loophole that he is permitted to use, but that others aren't able to use.

[Kilmer17]

The economy doesn't matter to voters? I see your general premise that not everyone is paying attention now, or that politicos watch this stuff more than a regular citizen. But, people are just getting introduced to Romney now, and the economy and the tax returns issue is something people will consider.

Now, are you asking me to opine on the merits of the opinions that come from this? I don't think everyone can take advantage of the tax loopholes that Romney does. That's the point. The middle class doesn't make money the way that the rich do, and they don't have the ability to use capital gains, off shore accounts, carried interest, etc., like the rich do.

So, the answer is that yes he is doing something that a lot of people are incapable of doing. And no he has not found a loophole that anyone can use. He's found a loophole that he is permitted to use, but that others aren't able to use.

Everyone can use those loopholes. The Obama team wants people to hate Romney because he's successful and wealthy. It's a classic class warfare tactic.

My point about the economy is that the people answering pollsters about the race today are not factoring in any of the dirt. Nobody outside the diehards are paying attention.

This wont be a choice election. It will ultimately come down to a referendum on Obama.

[Larry]

Is Romney doing something that everyone else is incapable of doing? Has he found a loophole that no one else can use?

Oh, I assume that everybody in the Bruce Wayne class uses the same tax avoidance methods.

No, he probably hasn't found a loophole that no one else can use. Just some that 99.99% can't use.

However, does "but all the multimillionaires do this" really help Romney, or his Party's agenda?

The issue with vacations is not that he takes them, or that they are expensive. The issue is his own staff says his plate is too full to solve certain issues. It's not hard to see why that looks bad.

Right.

I bet you said the same thing, when W was telling us all that he really can't be blamed for 9/11, because well, he'd only been in office for seven months (two of which he'd been on vacation), and that wasn't long enough for him to actually get up to speed on al Qaeda and it's threats?

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Everyone can use those loopholes. The Obama team wants people to hate Romney because he's successful and wealthy. It's a classic class warfare tactic.

My point about the economy is that the people answering pollsters about the race today are not factoring in any of the dirt. Nobody outside the diehards are paying attention.

This wont be a choice election. It will ultimately come down to a referendum on Obama.

I guess it feels good to think that last line if you want Obama to lose. But, the Bain and tax returns issue is making this a choice election. If it was a referendum on Obama, he'd be down 20 points in the polls right now.

And also, you are simply wrong that everyone can use the loopholes that Romney can.

[Kilmer17]

I guess it feels good to think that last line if you want Obama to lose. But, the Bain and tax returns issue is making this a choice election. If it was a referendum on Obama, he'd be down 20 points in the polls right now.

And also, you are simply wrong that everyone can use the loopholes that Romney can.

I know it feels good if you want Obama to win to believe that as well.

If Bain and his tax returns mattered, a President with overwhelming likeability advantage would be up 20.

People dont like Romney right now. But the race is still a toss up. Why?

The answer again, is that nobody is paying attention yet.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I know it feels good if you want Obama to win to believe that as well.

If Bain and his tax returns mattered, a President with overwhelming likeability advantage would be up 20.

People dont like Romney right now. But the race is still a toss up. Why?

The answer again, is that nobody is paying attention yet.

The race is a toss up because we are in the worst economy since the Great Depression! Unemployment is over 8% and you are satisfied that because the race is a toss up, that means the race is a referendum on Obama?

I'm sorry, that just doesn't make any sense.

[JimboDaMan]

The issue with vacations is not that he takes them, or that they are expensive. The issue is his own staff says his plate is too full to solve certain issues. It's not hard to see why that looks bad.

Soon as you can explain why it looks worse than George W Bush spending half his presidency clearing brush during a murderous war in Iraq I'll be glad to join you in that opinion.

Work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you will still be faced with problems you are too busy to fix.

<edit>If there is a necesary function that isn't getting done, I agree that it should get attention. Attending or not attending meetings is a lame complaint. But if something needs doing, get somebody to do it. Vacations have nothing to do with it.

[Kilmer17]

The race is a toss up because we are in the worst economy since the Great Depression! Unemployment is over 8% and you are satisfied that because the race is a toss up, that means the race is a referendum on Obama?

I'm sorry, that just doesn't make any sense.

You're making it more complicated that it needs to be.

It's neither a referendum nor a choice RIGHT NOW. It's just fill for 24/7 news orgs.

It seems like alot of people are paying attention and caring because WE spend so much time on it.

But most people arent

---------- Post added July-19th-2012 at 11:06 AM ----------

Soon as you can explain why it looks worse than George W Bush spending half his presidency clearing brush during a murderous war in Iraq I'll be glad to join you in that opinion.

Work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you will still be faced with problems you are too busy to fix.

It doesnt look worse. It looks the same. And the left wing went bat********ing crazy talking about how much time Bush spent in Texas.

[JimboDaMan]

It doesnt look worse. It looks the same. And the left wing went bat********ing crazy talking about how much time Bush spent in Texas.

So I'm confused. Were the left wingers right then? Or are Republicans wrong now?

j/k. I know what point you are making. And it's a pretty decent deflection from my original question, whether Republicans actually believe sacas's asinine insinuation that the Obama's are interested primarily in luxuriating at public expense.

[Kilmer17]

So I'm confused. Were the left wingers right then? Or are Republicans wrong now?

j/k. I know what point you are making. And it's a pretty decent deflection from my original question, whether Republicans actually believe sacas's asinine insinuation that the Obama's are interested primarily in luxuriating at public expense.

Right or wrong? Neither.

Both are acting like political beings. Interested in the reults at the polls, not the issue itself.

The left didnt care that Bush took vacation. The right doesnt care that Obama does. They each care about how they can spin it to the undecideds.