RTD: Virginia House Passes " Personhood " bill ( Bill sent back to Committee ) Revised Ultrasound Bill Passes Senate

[Hubbs]

And yet "likely to change" does not in any way shape or form negate the full force ofthe law as it is right now, because (and this is vitally important) EVERY law in the US is subject to being struck down through the judicial or constitutional amendment process. Again, EVERY law is written in pencil.

But the ambiguity in question was about whether or not the law would be changed. There was, in fact, a specific statement dedicated toward the notion that current law says abortions are legal.

[mistertim]

still ignoring it is standard medical procedure even w/o the law?
Good medicine to do so in advance and as a follow up

the waiting period and requiring more information be given to the patient is the only really new part

Yes, it is a standard medical procedure that almost all women get when they are having a child. But there is quite a difference between that and forcing a woman who wishes to have an abortion to have the procedure done. The fact that it is a standard procedure during pregnancy and is a good idea for a woman to do and follow up on when carrying a child is pretty much irrelevant to what the bill does.

[Dan T.]

Would you object to x-rays or imaging before surgery as well?
How is it not beneficial?

In general, I think medically trained doctors should be left to decide what procedures are needed and beneficial, not state legislators trying to make political points about a controversial subject.

[twa]

Yes, it is a standard medical procedure that almost all women get when they are having a child. But there is quite a difference between that and forcing a woman who wishes to have an abortion to have the procedure done. The fact that it is a standard procedure during pregnancy and is a good idea for a woman to do and follow up on when carrying a child is pretty much irrelevant to what the bill does.

It is standard procedure before abortions(according to Planned Parenthood),NOT pregnancies
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...oWHpNkyEb-ss0Q
in many pregnancies the abdominal sonogram is all that is used,though vaginal ones are used for better views

add DanT

This involves more than a medical procedure....at least according to those that recognize life...and accept science

[Spearfeather]

Just saying, I can't see a change in the abortion laws of my lifetime, Americans have become more liberal, and abortion isn't something the majority care to fight against.

Actually, as far as how they identify themselves, Americans have become more Conservative and Liberal. It's those " Moderates " that have been shrinking, but I do agree this is probobly not issue #1 as far as the political scene goes.

[GibbsFactor]

Claiming that personhood begins at conception has a pretty flimsy philosophical basis. I don't see how you can claim personhood before tissue differentiation, at the very least.

To me, it says life. The initial reaction between sperm and egg creates life. A person? Debatable.

[twa]

To me, it says life. The initial reaction between sperm and egg creates life. A person? Debatable.

I agree, though it does rather clearly become a individual at about 2 weeks.
I'm willing to settle for personhood at 14 days till more definitive info is available ....I can be reasonable

[Duckus]

still ignoring it is standard medical procedure even w/o the law?
Good medicine to do so in advance and as a follow up

the waiting period and requiring more information be given to the patient is the only really new part

That is a decision for an individual and a doctor. Not politicians trying to deter abortions.

Since you are okay with government required medical procedures that are standard and good practice, you have no problem with a law requiring yearly colon and prostate exams, right? Good medicine and all. I am sure the male dominated conservative state legislatures across the country would love to pass a law like that.

[Spearfeather]

I agree, though it does rather clearly become a individual at about 2 weeks.
I'm willing to settle for personhood at 14 days till more definitive info is available ....I can be reasonable

[twa]

That is a decision for an individual and a doctor. Not politicans trying to deter abortions.

Since you are okay with government required medical procedures that are standard and good practice, you have no problem with a law requiring yearly colon and prostate exams, right? Good medicine and all.

Before I have a related medical procedure?...sure,seems reasonable

Did I miss a requirement for yearly exams unrelated to a scheduled medical procedure?.....Think we could require them for those getting abortions?
The waiting period does not seem a heavy burden before a procedure that cannot be reversed

have some straw on me

[mistertim]

It is standard procedure before abortions(according to Planned Parenthood),NOT pregnancies

My point is that it isn't legislated and something that a woman is, by law, forced to do. I'm sure Planned Parenthood sees it as something that is best practice but if a woman doesn't want to have one before an abortion she can go elsewhere or request that they not do one and PP can make their own decision based on her wishes. By legislating it that means you're forcing the woman to have the procedure done. It should be between the woman and the doctor.

The thing is...I don't think there is anyone who is honestly under the illusion that these bills are anything but pure anti-abortion legislation wrapped up in semantic language and arguments to make it seem like they have some motive other than pure ideology.

They can't pass a bill that says "abortion is illegal in VA now" so they pass one bill that defines "personhood" as beginning at the moment of conception while leaving the language pretty vague which could open up the doors for all kinds of civil and legal cases when it comes to abortion. They pass another one that legally forces a woman to have a procedure done no matter what, which is a pretty obvious tactic meant to either intimidate or otherwise influence the woman's decision. And please, don't give me the whole "but they don't have to look" thing. The bill forces doctors to ask the woman if she wants to see the image and then officially record her decision and get her signature. The waiting period afterwards just adds to it. Are you seriously going to tell me that that isn't an incredibly obvious way for the anti-abortion folks to, through the government, insert themselves and their views/beliefs into the woman's decision making process?

[Duckus]

Before I have a related medical procedure?...sure,seems reasonable

Did I miss a requirement for yearly exams unrelated to a scheduled medical procedure?.....Think we could require them for those getting abortions?
The waiting period does not seem a heavy burden before a procedure that cannot be reversed

have some straw on me

Nah, honest don't believe you. The idea that you are cool with politicians dictating medical procedures instead of doctors, as long as there is a relevant procedure in their future, is laughable.

You don't like abortion. You see this procure as able to restrict abortion. You approve this form of government regulation and intrusion because it helps your end goal.

If a group of medical professionals want to make it standard general practice for medical and safety reason, that is one thing, and I can support it.

If politicians being urged by Christian far-right activists are forcing this, that is an entirely other thing.

[twa]

Mr Tim...for those that see it as a individual life it is a minor thing to demand the person making the choice consider all the facts.
some of you show more consideration for animals than you wish extended to human fetuses

the taking of life is not a medical decision...it is a very human one

[chipwhich]

Nah, honest don't believe you. The idea that you are cool with politicians dictating medical procedures instead of doctors, as long as there is a relevant procedure in their future, is laughable.

You don't like abortion. You see this procure as able to restrict abortion. You approve this form of government regulation and intrusion because it helps your end goal.

It's an easy choice when TWA doesn't have daughters.

[twa]

It's an easy choice when TWA doesn't have daughters.

You're right, I only have one
One that nearly died from a problem pregnancy she chose to go through.
One wife that would have to abort if pregnant
One sister with the same problem

Life is easy