The Nats Thread (old thread link inside, too many load issues)

[skinfan2k]

and who said we want to talk about Omar Viquel? Do you determine what is important to talk about? This strasburg issue is going to be lingering all year and its going to get even bigger if this team gets better. Its a non-issue if this team sucks but this team is one of the best teams in baseball

[Mufumonk]

Anyone suggesting Strasburg can skip starts, rest a month, etc... to extend his season simply doesn't understand the position. The routine is crucial (see: Johan Santana's start after the no-no). Pitchers don't just sit around for four days before taking the mound again. You're doing heavy cardio the next day to get the blood flowing where the soreness is, as well as upper body strengthening in the weight toom. 2nd day you're throwing long toss before throwing a bullpen session. After that comes the core and decelerator work. Day 3 includes more long toss, and cardio before studying the scouting report. Day 4 is your rest day. Long toss and light cardio with some electrotherapy while going over the scouting report. All of this in preparation for tour next start 30'ish times a year on top of the damage done on gameday where your looking at throwing around 175 pitches when you gactor in your pre-game warmup as well as the inning changes.

Pitching is an extremely violent and unnatural act for the human body and you want to toy around with a proven routine? No ****ing way.

[Forehead]

Davey Johnson isn't going to be here forever, and if this team is the #1 seed in the NL, they aren't shutting him down.

So what...the career of an ace and potential future HOF player isn't dependant on a manager's timeline. Davey Johnson has been a consultant with the team before he became the manager, and he's won a World Series in his lifetime already. He isn't going to risk Strasburg unless there's a total consensus that they can keep going with him. As someone else said, the team is ahead of schedule, 2013 was always the target year to be really competitive.

hey might go to a 6 man rotation in Sept with the expended rosters and skip a few starts.

This almost never happens in baseball despite how often it is talked about. Pitchers have a very distinct routine...Pitch, rest next day, long toss next day, bullpen next day, pitch again, etc. Mixing that up is rarely advisable. The only time you see six starters is if there are injury concerns, sometimes to multiple players.

Having 4 good arms doesn't require us to pitch Strasburg twice in a series in the playoffs.

No, but if he's the #1 guy, he would almost be certain to barring Nationals sweeps. I don't claim to know Strasburgs mental makeup, but if he's in the mold of a Curt Schilling, he might even go three times in a seven game series. I don't know if you remember the D-Backs 2001 WS win over the Yankees. Schilling insisted on pitching every three games. Their starting rotation for that series was, by game, Schilling, Randy Johnson, Brian Anderson, Schilling again, Miguel Batista, Randy Johnson, then Schilling again in game seven, with Johnson coming on in relief. Schilling and Johnson were warriors; I don't know if Strasburg and Gio are the same sort of guys. But neither Schilling or Johnson was coming off Tommy John surgery, so it could be a case of saving Strasburg from himself.

You can't predict the future in any sport. If you have a chance to win a title you go for. You are asking Strasburg to pitch about 205-210 when it all said and done if we win the WS.

I disagree, though I won't dismiss your opinion entirely. Baseball is different in my book. Hockey playoffs can turn on a hot goalie. Football injuries can occur and ruin careers in an instant. In baseball, if you have a crop of good young players, you have a window, and you don't risk someone. Baseball rarely has career ending injuries anymore with the advances that have been made in arm surgeries. Jordan Zimmermann looks great this year...I have a feeling the same crop of doctors will follow the same plan with Strasburg.

200 innings is a pretty high threshold. There are 30 teams in the league, and 5 starters per team, so you're looking at 150 full time starting pitchers, then factoring in injuries. Last year, only 39 pitchers went 200 innings plus, though in fairness, Edwin Jackson was at 199.2. In 2010, 45 pitchers exceeded that benchmark. In 2009, it was only 36, so you're looking at about an average of 40 per year. That means only 26% of starters are getting to that level. Is Strasburg in the top 26% of all starting pitchers? Undoubtedly yes....but how many of them were recovering from a major arm surgery? My guess is none. I say take it safe, and that's coming from a guy who was a pitcher and frequently went threw with a sore and overworked arm.

[HeluCopter29]

Anyone suggesting Strasburg can skip starts, rest a month, etc... to extend his season simply doesn't understand the position. The routine is crucial (see: Johan Santana's start after the no-no). Pitchers don't just sit around for four days before taking the mound again. You're doing heavy cardio the next day to get the blood flowing where the soreness is, as well as upper body strengthening in the weight toom. 2nd day you're throwing long toss before throwing a bullpen session. After that comes the core and decelerator work. Day 3 includes more long toss, and cardio before studying the scouting report. Day 4 is your rest day. Long toss and light cardio with some electrotherapy while going over the scouting report. All of this in preparation for tour next start 30'ish times a year on top of the damage done on gameday where your looking at throwing around 175 pitches when you gactor in your pre-game warmup as well as the inning changes.

Pitching is an extremely violent and unnatural act for the human body and you want to toy around with a proven routine? No ****ing way.

I don't disagree with any of this. But skipping a start or two is not unheard of and has been discussed quite a bit.

[MattFancy]

I don't disagree with any of this. But skipping a start or two is not unheard of and has been discussed quite a bit.

Maybe a start or 2, but certainly can't just shut him down for a month.

[HeluCopter29]

Maybe a start or 2, but certainly can't just shut him down for a month.

No I agree. One start at a time, not two in a row.

[skinswillwin06]

Rizzo isn't going to fool around with Strasburg like that. I believe he's said it himself and I know Strasburg wouldn't like it one bit. He is going to make a decision one way or the other and that will be the end of it. There will be no skipping starts, Rizzo doesn't operate like that.

[Warhead36]

I don't buy the notion that we're not contenders without Strasburg. I still think we would be. The offense is starting to come around and will only get better once Werth returns. The bullpen without HRod is excellent and will only strengthen with Storen's return. Even without Strasburg we are contenders.


Okay, slightly different topic here: how about Strasburg pitching in the All-Star game? He's obviously going to make it, hell he could even start. On one hand I don't want him to start as that's additional wear and tear he'd suffer for no real purpose(I don't give a crap about HFA in the WS, we can get that with Kershaw or Hamels starting just fine). On the other hand I think it'd be great for the Nationals standing in MLB to have their ace start the All-Star game. Would give the franchise even more credibility which can only help when it comes to signing future FAs and what not.

[StillUnknown]

Okay, slightly different topic here: how about Strasburg pitching in the All-Star game? He's obviously going to make it, hell he could even start. On one hand I don't want him to start as that's additional wear and tear he'd suffer for no real purpose(I don't give a crap about HFA in the WS, we can get that with Kershaw or Hamels starting just fine). On the other hand I think it'd be great for the Nationals standing in MLB to have their ace start the All-Star game. Would give the franchise even more credibility which can only help when it comes to signing future FAs and what not.

I'm fine with Stras pitching in the all-star game. We're talking 1 inning, 2 if he starts. I can't see that having any lasting impact. Should be a nice battle down the stretch to see who starts that game, you could make very strong arguments for Stras or Gio.


I'm also interested to see if Bryce makes it to the roster. I didn't give much thought before, but you could argue he deserves to be there.

[skinfan2k]

right now its looking look 70% chance that either Gio or SS start the all star game. the other being Kershaw but our pitchers have the better stats right now

[Buford]

I could see shutting him down, or better yet, slowing him down towards the end of the year. Maybe have him skip a start or two, but once the pennant race starts, if we're in it, he should pitch. No doubt in my mind. If you've got an oppurtunity you seize it.

I do wonder what impact having 6 starters would really have on the entire staff. Would having the extra day off really hurt their rhythm? Has somebody tried it before and it didn't work? I assume their are negatives. The positives would be saving both Stras and Zimm a little bit. The down side for most teams is that they don't have 6 starters. I think we do with Ross.

[Forehead]

I do wonder what impact having 6 starters would really have on the entire staff. Would having the extra day off really hurt their rhythm? Has somebody tried it before and it didn't work? I assume their are negatives. The positives would be saving both Stras and Zimm a little bit. The down side for most teams is that they don't have 6 starters. I think we do with Ross.

Hell, if you're going by career past, we have eight starters on staff. Craig Stammen and Sean Burnett both have experience as well.

[Hubbs]

So, question for everyone talking about shutting Stras down: Where's the evidence that the thing that killed other pitchers' careers was excessive cumulative innings in a single season, rather than one bad throw that twisted the wrong tendon in the wrong way or something like that? I'm legitimately asking, I'm not particularly well-versed in the details of pitching injuries but I remember reading an article a while back that argued pretty persuasively that innings limits were completely pointless because pitching injuries have nothing to do with how many innings a guy pitches in a season. That the whole concept is essentially superstition, in other words. A theory that kind of makes sense when you talk about it, because you put it in terms that naturally sound logical—"You don't want to overwork a pitcher's arm when he's coming back from surgery." "Oh, that makes sense."—but that isn't actually backed up by medical science.

Don't know whether it's true or not, but, hey, it's worth talking about.

[hunterx]

If he skips a few starts, or is shut down for a month...relax guys. It's not like he can't maintain his routine. On his game days, he would still pitch a simulated game to keep everything going. He would just be missing that competition of someone trying to embarrass him at the plate. I'm sure Rizzo and Davey will make the right decision.

Even if Stras is shut down for the playoffs. I still think our staff can stilll be very, very good with Gio-JZim-Ejax.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

and who said we want to talk about Omar Viquel? Do you determine what is important to talk about? This strasburg issue is going to be lingering all year and its going to get even bigger if this team gets better. Its a non-issue if this team sucks but this team is one of the best teams in baseball

Everyone needs to just relax on this. Guess what, Strasburg is going to get shut down towards the end of August and he's not coming back this year. That's if everything goes WELL. He had a major elbow surgery, and we should be crossing our fingers that he doesn't start experiencing more pain in his elbow or somewhere else (like a shoulder) due to changed mechanics. Get over it.

Also, when Strasburg gets shut down, we will have Nat-Gio, J-Zimm and Edwin Jackson at the top of our rotation, which looks like a Cy Young candidate and two very, very good pitchers to me. Still better than anything most teams have to offer.

Just forget that Strasburg might not get shut down. He is. Period. And the Nats will be fine with him or without him.

---------- Post added June-13th-2012 at 09:20 AM ----------

Anyone suggesting Strasburg can skip starts, rest a month, etc... to extend his season simply doesn't understand the position. The routine is crucial (see: Johan Santana's start after the no-no). Pitchers don't just sit around for four days before taking the mound again. You're doing heavy cardio the next day to get the blood flowing where the soreness is, as well as upper body strengthening in the weight toom. 2nd day you're throwing long toss before throwing a bullpen session. After that comes the core and decelerator work. Day 3 includes more long toss, and cardio before studying the scouting report. Day 4 is your rest day. Long toss and light cardio with some electrotherapy while going over the scouting report. All of this in preparation for tour next start 30'ish times a year on top of the damage done on gameday where your looking at throwing around 175 pitches when you gactor in your pre-game warmup as well as the inning changes.

Pitching is an extremely violent and unnatural act for the human body and you want to toy around with a proven routine? No ****ing way.

Exactly. There's a reason pitchers don't start pitching again in December after taking a November off. The arm needs months of rest to recuperate after a season. He's not coming back, and there's no way he skips starts or something... which, honestly, doesn't even make any sense.

---------- Post added June-13th-2012 at 09:36 AM ----------

It ABSOLUTELY is a arbitrary number, made up by the media who watched J Zimm...
Even the nationals admit that...

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-bi...200345159.html

You all act like all innings are the same. You think a 9 pitch inning is the same at a 28 pitch inning?

Is it? I looked for any articles at all on the limit but couldn't find any. Legitimate question btw not sarcasm. Granted I didn't think Rizzo just pulled it out of his ass.

I don't take it as sarcasm because its a legit question. But yes, there is legitimate evidence on a few things: 1) a pitcher who is tired is more likely to hurt himself than one who is not; and 2) an increase of certain amount of innings (generally thought like 20-30%) from year to year tends to make a pitcher more tired. So, by the end of the year, he is more likely to hurt himself. So, put this in context with Stras, for example, how many innings did he throw last year? 30? Obviously he has some minor league innings too, and I don't know what his totals were, but even160 innings is a drastic increase in innings from his year last year. By having him even go to 160 IP, we are pushing him at a significant clip beyond what he's ever done, frankly, and thus increasing his risk of tired arm, and thus increasing his risk of re-injuring his arm. That's the problem.

And let me clarify that 160 IP is not arbitrary. Its true that this is a case-by-case basis. I dont expect Davey Johnson to walk to the mound in the middle of an inning and pull Strasburg when he hits the "magical" 160 IP. I expect that somewhere AROUND 160 IP to 170 IP, Rizzo will say to himself and then to the team "this is way more than Strasburg has ever pitched, we are now playing with fire, he's done."