Designing An Offense for Robert Griffin III; You Can't Know Where You're Going Until You Know Where You've Been

[darrelgreenie]

Your own post showed one in the zone-read thread.

Yep, and if there were more I would have posted them I looked through a bunch of games to find that 1 instance.
This is a good opportunity to have a football discussion I'm not trying to turn this into a quibble fest, but I disagree that we ran a lot of shotgun play action and its something I watch pretty closely.

Did you watch the Gruden/Tannehill clip?

[Darth Tater]

Yep, and if there were more I would have posted them I looked through a bunch of games to find that 1 instance.
This is a good opportunity to have a football discussion I'm not trying to turn this into a quibble fest, but I disagree that we ran a lot of shotgun play action and its something I watch pretty closely.

Did you watch the Gruden/Tannehill clip?

Quibble but I didn't say we run a lot, just that we do run it already. A basic principle of the WCO is to run only those plays your personnel runs best. There are MANY plays we don't run or run rarely that are in the playbook. You will may see some plays that look new to you but have been in our offense since 2010.

[darrelgreenie]

Quibble but I didn't say we run a lot, just that we do run it already.

No worries, maybe that isn't what you intended but its what you wrote.

I'll be really surprised if they dont pull in some of the shotgun play action stuff that he did at Baylor.

We already did that a lot unless you mean the zone read pass ( they also ran a lot of shotgun veer read pass).

Did watch/listen to Gruden comments on the WCO+zone read?

---------- Post added May-2nd-2012 at 07:14 PM ----------

We used the shotgun formation a lot last year but we really didn't do much play-action out of it. We rarely even ran the football out of the formation... period. I wouldn't be shocked if it was less than ten times for both put together. I envision us doing a lot more of it this season.

Compared to most teams I don't think we use the shotgun that much. From what I saw/remember we're more of a 3rd down shotgun team.
But, I agree that we rarely ran the ball form shotgun.
I'm hoping that shotgun will be part of the base offense formations to be used on normal down and distance like 1st & 10 as opposed to mainly on 3rd and long.

---------- Post added May-2nd-2012 at 07:34 PM ----------

So much of what this offense does in Year 1 of RG3 seems to depend on how well the O-line holds up. In Year 2, we might see more of the free flowing game that others have already talked about.

I agree in terms of pure drop back pass protection.
Rookie QBs tend to be more dependent upon good pass protection then vets.
They tend to miss more pre-snap/blitz reads, get stuck on their progressions more often, and hold the ball longer trying to make a play instead of throwing the ball away.
Although the pass protection last year wasn't great I think its better then people often give it credit for being.
The scheme allows the OL as a unit to be better then the sum of its parts and solid running game is also an assist to pass protection.
As we saw towards the end of last year the pass protection improved as the OL and the playcalling established the run.

I think the young OL talent drafted last year and this year all fit the ZBS: athletic guys with good feet that can move and get to the second level.(Hurt,Willie Smith, Polumbus(not so young),LeRibeus, Gettis, Compton)
I wouldn't be surprised if LeRibeus wins a starting job and someone eventually takes over and provides an upgrade from Jammal Brown or Monty or Chris Chester.
I think the OL has a chance to better then last and become a solid or better unit.
But, I do agree with you and think the offense will go as the OL goes.

[Darth Tater]

No worries, maybe that isn't what you intended but its what you wrote

Yep, but it seems my definition of a lot when it comes to watching football does not match up with most everyone else. A lot would to me would be at least about 30% of situations where the run is a valid option. This does reflects us,

Did watch/listen to Gruden comments on the WCO+zone read?[COLOR="Gold"]

Yes.

.
]Compared to most teams I don't think we use the shotgun that much. From what I saw/remember we're more of a 3rd down shotgun team.
But, I agree that we rarely ran the ball form shotgun.
I'm hoping that shotgun will be part of the base offense formations to be used on normal down and distance like 1st & 10 as opposed to mainly on 3rd and long.

We went shotgun about as often as all but a handful of teams.

[NLC1054]

Going by Fox Sports, we used the shotgun 50.3% of the time, between Rex and Beck. I think that number will get closer to 60% with Robert Griffin III until he gets more comfortable with the 3, 5 and 7 step drops. (On pass attempts, I couldn't tell you exactly how much we ran out of the gun.)

[Darth Tater]

Going by Fox Sports, we used the shotgun 50.3% of the time, between Rex and Beck. I think that number will get closer to 60% with Robert Griffin III until he gets more comfortable with the 3, 5 and 7 step drops. (On pass attempts, I couldn't tell you exactly how much we ran out of the gun.)

Don't know if they'll change that too much even if he gets comfortable. Elway was in shotgun an awful lot for a WCO in the mid-90s. Going shotgun when you got a guy like RG3 would put a lot of stress on the defense. Unlike standard shotguns in the NFL where you still basically playing 10 offensive guys, the shotgun with a guy like RG3, the defense is playing against all 11.

[NLC1054]

Don't know if they'll change that too much even if he gets comfortable. Elway was in shotgun an awful lot for a WCO in the mid-90s. Going shotgun when you got a guy like RG3 would put a lot of stress on the defense. Unlike standard shotguns in the NFL where you still basically playing 10 offensive guys, the shotgun with a guy like RG3, the defense is playing against all 11.

True, true. If you look at that footage of Cutler,. he's in the gun A LOT--I think they were in the gun 60% of the time.

[darrelgreenie]

Going by Fox Sports, we used the shotgun 50.3% of the time, between Rex and Beck. (On pass attempts, I couldn't tell you exactly how much we ran out of the gun.)

I haven't looked at Fox sports as a refernce in awhile, it has the formation breakdowns ESPN used to have.
I'm adding that to my favorites, thanks i was looking for splits that included shotgun for the zone-read thread,
I'm surprised that we passed from in shotgun that much (50.3%) i thought it would have been less.
For those interested we ran the ball 5% of the rushing attempts of Helu, Royster, HTH, Torain came from shotgun.

Here are the percentages of pass from shotgun for our East rivals:
Eli 62%
Romo 63%
Vick 60%

I think that number will get closer to 60% with Robert Griffin III until he gets more comfortable with the 3, 5 and 7 step drops.

Just a frame of reference percentage of passes from shotgun for the 2011 rookies:

Dalton 64%
Newton 70%

Its gonna be interesting to watch which direction the offense goes.
Griffin makes any direction the offense takes viable.

---------- Post added May-2nd-2012 at 09:11 PM ----------

A lot would to me would be at least about 30% of situations where the run is a valid option.

You lost me.

We went shotgun about as often as all but a handful of teams.

I've been doing some randon sampling and I've only found 2 QBs that had fewer passing attempts by percantage from shotgun:
Alex Smith 42%
Matt Schaub 38%

all of the other QBs I checked were over: Dalton, Newton, Romo, Rodgers, Vick, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Stafford, Gabbert, Fitzpatrick

---------- Post added May-2nd-2012 at 09:13 PM ----------

Did watch/listen to Gruden comments on the WCO+zone read?

Yes

What did you think of his comments on the zone read and the WCO?

[#BgMase76#]

I say nothing. If this kid is all that we believe him to be then we don't change anything. Last year our offense's biggest weakness was the QB position. That's taking into account the injuries on the OL. We still were able to run the ball enough to work our play action. Take away Rex's penchant for INTs at the worst time possible and we weren't bad. RGIII gives us mobility at that position which will help the line and buy the WR's more time on their routes. The biggest advantage is the defense knowing that he's capable of taking off and burning the D. Simply put, his feet will garner the respect of an elite QB.

[Darth Tater]

DG,

RE 30%
About 6-7 times a game on aveerage, which is about how often we did it.

I've been doing some randon sampling and I've only found 2 QBs that had fewer passing attempts by percantage from shotgun:
Alex Smith 42%
Matt Schaub 38%

all of the other QBs I checked were over: Dalton, Newton, Romo, Rodgers, Vick, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Stafford, Gabbert, Fitzpatrick

How many of those guys went shotgun more than 60% of the time?

[darrelgreenie]

RE 30% About 6-7 times a game on aveerage, which is about how often we did it.

What is the 'it' again, that's where you lost me.
Sags and I were talking about shotgun playction and some of Baylors zone-read concepts, I'm not sure what it you are refering to.
(shotgun playaction, zone-read or regular shotgun)
Oh, the average team runs 65-70 plays a game, so if you spit ball that we did whatever you refering to 6-7 times a game thats only 10%.

How many of those guys went shotgun more than 60% of the time?

Fox only tells how many passes were thrown from shotgun and to answer your question IIRC from the QBs I listed only Brees was under 60% at 53%

No comment on the Gruden zone read+WCO?

[Mr. Sinister]

I have about half a chub at thinking what that first deep pass is going to look like, especially when you consider his deep ball accuracy. I''ve seen a few plays over the years where we'd have a guy wide open with no one around him, only to see the pass either go into the stands, or fall like a duck that just got shot out of the air.

[NLC1054]

Wow, Brees is a shocking one...at any rate

No comment on the Gruden zone read+WCO?

I think he's sort of got a point, but Gruden (as he can do) is so general that he doesn't really explain why the zone/read would make the West Coast Offense any deadlier than normal. If it's just about adding another element to an offense period, than yeah; just like adding zone/read concepts to Rod Chudzinky's Air Coryell/Spread style offense. But without him getting into specifics, it's hard to determine what about the West Coast Offense makes it any more or less deadly than anything else.

[darrelgreenie]

I think he's sort of got a point, but Gruden (as he can do) is so general that he doesn't really explain why the zone/read would make the West Coast Offense any deadlier than normal. If it's just about adding another element to an offense period, than yeah; just like adding zone/read concepts to Rod Chudzinky's Air Coryell/Spread style offense. But without him getting into specifics, it's hard to determine what about the West Coast Offense makes it any more or less deadly than anything else.

I can tell you my view.
Because most WCO offenses have ZBS running game it makes a hypothetical transition to a shotgun zone-read attack easier.
Very little changes from the POV of the OL going from a tradition WCO to zone-read.
Also the boot-keep/boot-swap aspects of the ZBS running game transfer directly to zone-read.
You can convert a boot-action pass into a zone-read pass by changing the mesh points for the QB and RB.
Not a whole lot else would have to change as far as route patterns and pass concepts.
So I think he's refering to the ease of the transition.
But he could just mean to laud the contributions the zone-read would add to any offense in general and he just happens to relate directly to the WCO because when he watches A&M he sees the WCO+zone read in action?

I like the zone-read attack with a mobile QB because it creates a numerical advantage in the running game that teams must account for or get gashed by.
Add the increased tempo and a defense can quickly get on their heels and when teams sell out to stop the bleeding they're screwed because all the elements of the zone-read attack look the same.
Is it a keep? Is it inside zone, outside zone, or cutback, or is it a pass?
All it takes is a LB or DB to get flat footed or worse take a false step then boom chunk passing plays (even with a limited passer like Tebow).
Its like guerrilla play-action.

[Hubbs]

I would love it if they added some shotgun zone read.
For me, conceptually the zone read + ZBS are a perfect marriage its like the evolution of boot-swap concept.

Jon Gruden talks about the zone read + WCO concepts that could be possibilities for our offense if Kyle adds zone-read plays/concepts:
skip to 7:50-8:30 (where Gruden talks about zone read+WCO concepts)

Gruden's comment to Tannehill after the zone-read conversation applies even more to Griffin:

Wow, I didn't know Gruden held that opinion. That's great. I've been pounding the table for a while now about how the spread is coming to the NFL. Quarterbacks won't run as much as they do in college, but they'll run and they'll run on purpose, or to be more precise at least a significantly greater percentage of them will run than most people have been saying for years. It just affects opposing defenses too much to ignore. If you have a QB who can do it, you have to do it, even when taking into account the fact that it slightly increases the odds of your starter getting hurt within the large sample size of an entire season.