Old Redskins questions I've always wondered about.......

[grhqofb5]

As a relatively young fan who (at least I believe) has a decent historical knowledge of the franchise, players, etc., I often find myself wondering about certain things that aren't reflected in the stat sheet, things that may have happened a while ago and have sort of been lost in time, with no real record. A few questions that my raise some decent debate and/or discussion:

(1) After Super Bowl XXII, and coming into the 1988 season, was Doug Williams publicly annointed the starting quarterback over Jay Schroeder? I seem to remember Schroeder being on the team up to at least training camp. What was the story?

(2) Charlie Brown was an up and coming superstar in the 1982-1983 seasons. Looks like he may have been injured in 1984, then was traded or released. Why did the team give up on him, and what did we receive in return?

(3) When George Rogers was brought in before the 1985 season, how did Riggins react, knowing that Rogers was going to be his replacement?

(4) When Dexter Manley was banned from the league, what was the general fan/local media reaction? When he returned to the league, why didn't the Redskins take him back? Too much history?

(5) When Theismann broke his leg in 1985, did the fanbase /local media/team expect that he would eventually return, or was the injury immediately deemed to be career ending?

The purpose of this thread is to discuss similar topics, and to tap into some of the knowledge possessed by the "older" members of the board.

[IHOPSkins]

.....(4) When Dexter Manley was banned from the league, what was the general fan/local media reaction? When he returned to the league, why didn't the Redskins take him back?.......

My memory is not the best But I will field this one

....Too much history?....

Pretty much yes

Gibbs had given Dex enough chances and Dex just could not change.....Gibbs let him go

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthre...-Dexter-Manley

[derskinsfan]

Here's how I remember it:

1) I remember hoping that Doug would decide to retire, because Schroeder was much younger and was pretty good just two years before. But I think he was traded early in training camp (or just before). Turned out to be the right move as we traded him to the Raiders for Jim Lachey, who anchored the left side for many years and helped us win another SB. Also, Schroeder was really never the same QB after being pummeled by the Giants three times in 1986.

2) Charlie Brown was traded to the Falcons in, I believe, 1985 for RC Thielmann, a veteran guard. Another good move. Thielmann fit right in and was a starter for us in SB XXII. Charlie Brown was okay but not great after the Skins, I think he only played a couple more years. Plus we added Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders in 1986. (Our immediate replacement for Brown in 1985 was Calvin Muhammad. He had a pretty good year in 85, then faded because he was diabetic.)

3) I don't remember a lot of controversy from Riggo when we brought on Rogers, but I do remember it was hard to figure out how to split up the carries. '85 turned out to be a transition year all around. Basically the last hurrah for Riggo, Moseley and Joe T. Rogers didn't turn out to be the answer though, either.

5) I don't think many people expected Joe T. to return after the broken leg, although I do remember him talking about making a comeback. The reality was that one leg is still shorter than the other because of the break. Also, he was having a pretty terrible season prior to the injury. He just wasn't playing as crisply. Lots of turnovers, few downfield plays. It seemed as though the end was near.

[stwasm]

Here's how I remember it:

1) I remember hoping that Doug would decide to retire, because Schroeder was much younger and was pretty good just two years before. But I think he was traded early in training camp (or just before). Turned out to be the right move as we traded him to the Raiders for Jim Lachey, who anchored the left side for many years and helped us win another SB. Also, Schroeder was really never the same QB after being pummeled by the Giants three times in 1986.

Another part of this is that Schroeder and Williams didn't get along. The year before, when the Giants shut out the Skins in the NFC Championship Game, Schroeder was hurt during the game and, when Williams went onto the field to replace him, Schroeder yelled at him and humiliated him on the field in front of the team so he could finish the game. After the Super Bowl win, in a pre-season game against the Steelers, Williams played well while Schroeder was terrible, prompting fans in the stadium to chant, "We Want Doug!" Schroeder then publicly accused the offense of playing harder for Doug than him. It was at that point Beathard traded Schroeder to Oakland for Jim Lachey. Turned out to be a GREAT move for us and a not-so-good for the Raiders.

[Chump Bailey]

Another part of this is that Schroeder and Williams didn't get along. The year before, when the Giants shut out the Skins in the NFC Championship Game, Schroeder was hurt during the game and, when Williams went onto the field to replace him, Schroeder yelled at him and humiliated him on the field in front of the team so he could finish the game. After the Super Bowl win, in a pre-season game against the Steelers, Williams played well while Schroeder was terrible, prompting fans in the stadium to chant, "We Want Doug!" Schroeder then publicly accused the offense of playing harder for Doug than him. It was at that point Beathard traded Schroeder to Oakland for Jim Lachey. Turned out to be a GREAT move for us and a not-so-good for the Raiders.

I never realized how pathetic Schroeder was.

[SonnyandSam]

I never realized how pathetic Schroeder was.

He was not liked by his teammates. Too much ego and entitlement. Just not a good guy apparently. Fans heard some about it but for the most part it was internal to the team. He was also hot and cold on the field as I recall. I seem to recall fans were hot and cold about him, too. Not a lot of fan support.

---------- Post added May-9th-2012 at 06:37 PM ----------

Technically no.....

Washington will re-sign Monk so he can officially retire as a Redskin.

"Nothing would delight us more than for Art Monk to officially retire as a Redskin," said team President John Kent Cook.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_19574895/

He should have played his last (every) game as a Redskin

That's your heart talking. Gibbs knew what he was doing. Monk's career was on the downside and it was time to move on to younger legs. Fans have a hard time letting go of players. But in the end, it is a business. You have to watch out for the future of the team. That is how the Redskins stayed competitive for over ten years and won three Super Bowls with three different QBs and running backs.

That is also why Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato had crappy teams for over ten years. Always looking at the now and not the future.

[Darth Tater]

He was not liked by his teammates. Too much ego and entitlement. Just not a good guy apparently. Fans heard some about it but for the most part it was internal to the team. He was also hot and cold on the field as I recall. I seem to recall fans were hot and cold about him, too. Not a lot of fan support.

---------- Post added May-9th-2012 at 06:37 PM ----------



That's your heart talking. Gibbs knew what he was doing. Monk's career was on the downside and it was time to move on to younger legs. Fans have a hard time letting go of players. But in the end, it is a business. You have to watch out for the future of the team. That is how the Redskins stayed competitive for over ten years and won three Super Bowls with three different QBs and running backs.

That is also why Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato had crappy teams for over ten years. Always looking at the now and not the future.

Gibbs didn't move Monk and Monk was a Redskin for 1 year after Gibbs left. Monk was moved by Turner

---------- Post added May-9th-2012 at 04:49 PM ----------

I remember this situation pretty well...

Monk was offered a FA contract but his agent thought Monk could get a better deal after testing the market for close to a month. Monk said he would accept the Redskins offer but by that time Henry Ellard was signed and Monk signed with the Jets for less money that he would have received.had he accepted the initial offer.

So, not only did Gibbs and his immediate predecessor keep Monk, Turner would have kept him as a three of four? Fans are the ones who love to let players go well before they are done.

[PeterMP]

That's your heart talking. Gibbs knew what he was doing. Monk's career was on the downside and it was time to move on to younger legs. Fans have a hard time letting go of players. But in the end, it is a business. You have to watch out for the future of the team. That is how the Redskins stayed competitive for over ten years and won three Super Bowls with three different QBs and running backs.

That is also why Dan Snyder and Vinnie Cerrato had crappy teams for over ten years. Always looking at the now and not the future.

It was Turner that let Monk go.

Gibbs retired in 1993. One year with Pettibone and then Turner

Monk signed with the Jets in 1994.

[s0crates]

I never realized how pathetic Schroeder was.

Pathetic is one word for him. My dad called him crybaby Schroeder.

[scruffylookin]

I never realized how pathetic Schroeder was.

Well he wasn't. At least not in that completely one sided Doug Williams crybaby description of the 1986 NFC Championship Game. The self absorbed Americas Game Doug Williams way of describing it is poor Dougie being "humiliated" because he was waved off.

The accurate description is Jay Schroeder was the unquestioned starter of that team. Had a pro bowl season. Led the team to 14 wins in 18 games going into that game. He and the team were getting beat up pretty good that day. And despite the beating he was taking and despite the game being out of reach, our starting quarterback refused to be pulled out and stayed in there to the bitter end.

If poor little Dougie still can't handle that, cry to Joe Gibbs. He let Jay stay in.

As for the OP question, it was an open competition in the 1988 preseason. The scrimmage that year was the first one ever televised locally due to the interest in Jay vs Doug. Both played well that preseason but Williams was a bit better and was named the starter by the last preseason game. Jay was traded within the week to LA for Jim Lachey.

Either Gibbs knew he had a quality starter waiting in the wings in Mark Rypien or he got very lucky that Ryp was there because keeping Williams proved to be short sighted. He played mediocre to poor for the limited time he had left and missed loads of time due to injuries.

As for the other questions, others got those pretty accurately covered. Only the Williams/Schroeder thing has been inaccurate thus far. So it had to be addressed.

[monkeezgob]

I remember being shocked by the Charlie brown trade, yeah, we was injured in 84, but he was lightning quick and boy, could he jump! he could out jump anyone for the ball! i was doubly disappointed because that trade also sent Joe Washington to Atlanta too. Joe had also had a tough season in 84, but he gave our backfield a terrific one two punch and was a great receiver too. Still, as many have said, it turned out to be a great bit of business for us as neither of them ever really made much of an impact at Atlanta and we got a pro-bowler in return.

I think Gibbs handled the Riggo situation pretty well. Rogers was brought in and Riggo was gradually sort of phased out as the season wore on. Gibbs let him down gently and he let him go with dignity. I do remember Rogers having problems with fumbling the ball that season though.

---------- Post added May-10th-2012 at 06:16 AM ----------

Well he wasn't. At least not in that completely one sided Doug Williams crybaby description of the 1986 NFC Championship Game. The self absorbed Americas Game Doug Williams way of describing it is poor Dougie being "humiliated" because he was waved off.

The accurate description is Jay Schroeder was the unquestioned starter of that team. Had a pro bowl season. Led the team to 14 wins in 18 games going into that game. He and the team were getting beat up pretty good that day. And despite the beating he was taking and despite the game being out of reach, our starting quarterback refused to be pulled out and stayed in there to the bitter end.

If poor little Dougie still can't handle that, cry to Joe Gibbs. He let Jay stay in.

As for the OP question, it was an open competition in the 1988 preseason. The scrimmage that year was the first one ever televised locally due to the interest in Jay vs Doug. Both played well that preseason but Williams was a bit better and was named the starter by the last preseason game. Jay was traded within the week to LA for Jim Lachey.

Either Gibbs knew he had a quality starter waiting in the wings in Mark Rypien or he got very lucky that Ryp was there because keeping Williams proved to be short sighted. He played mediocre to poor for the limited time he had left and missed loads of time due to injuries.

As for the other questions, others got those pretty accurately covered. Only the Williams/Schroeder thing has been inaccurate thus far. So it had to be addressed.

I don't recall it being quite that simple. Schroeder had a great season, but he also had a big ego too. He was a more divisive figure in the locker room than your post suggests.

[stwasm]

I never realized how pathetic Schroeder was.

Ironically, Jay Schroeder is the reason Doug finished Super Bowl XXII after his injury in that game. Doug said the only way he would let Schroeder get a Super Bowl ring is if he gave him one. He never forget the way Schroeder treated him and the latter really had the fans turn against him after that.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

3) I don't remember a lot of controversy from Riggo when we brought on Rogers, but I do remember it was hard to figure out how to split up the carries. '85 turned out to be a transition year all around. Basically the last hurrah for Riggo, Moseley and Joe T. Rogers didn't turn out to be the answer though, either.

He averaged almost 1,000 yards and 10 TDs per season here over 3 years. I would say he was a good bridge as a veteran acquisition.

[terryb101]

Here's how I remember it:

1) I remember hoping that Doug would decide to retire, because Schroeder was much younger and was pretty good just two years before. But I think he was traded early in training camp (or just before). Turned out to be the right move as we traded him to the Raiders for Jim Lachey, who anchored the left side for many years and helped us win another SB. Also, Schroeder was really never the same QB after being pummeled by the Giants three times in 1986.

2) Charlie Brown was traded to the Falcons in, I believe, 1985 for RC Thielmann, a veteran guard. Another good move. Thielmann fit right in and was a starter for us in SB XXII. Charlie Brown was okay but not great after the Skins, I think he only played a couple more years. Plus we added Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders in 1986. (Our immediate replacement for Brown in 1985 was Calvin Muhammad. He had a pretty good year in 85, then faded because he was diabetic.)

3) I don't remember a lot of controversy from Riggo when we brought on Rogers, but I do remember it was hard to figure out how to split up the carries. '85 turned out to be a transition year all around. Basically the last hurrah for Riggo, Moseley and Joe T. Rogers didn't turn out to be the answer though, either.

5) I don't think many people expected Joe T. to return after the broken leg, although I do remember him talking about making a comeback. The reality was that one leg is still shorter than the other because of the break. Also, he was having a pretty terrible season prior to the injury. He just wasn't playing as crisply. Lots of turnovers, few downfield plays. It seemed as though the end was near.

as far as #5 goes,, yeah he was getting happy feet throughout the season. that was the year he really started worrying about getting hit and started hurrying his throws in order to avoid being hit, if he hadnt gotten hurt he probably wouldnt have played more than another year or 2, with decling numbers in those years.. sad to say,,, he probably was the 2nd best qb the skins have have in my 42 yrs of watching them,, sonny being number 1

[kingdaddy]

as far as #5 goes,, yeah he was getting happy feet throughout the season. that was the year he really started worrying about getting hit and started hurrying his throws in order to avoid being hit, if he hadnt gotten hurt he probably wouldnt have played more than another year or 2, with decling numbers in those years.. sad to say,,, he probably was the 2nd best qb the skins have have in my 42 yrs of watching them,, sonny being number 1

You left out RG lll who is now the best QB you've seen in your 42 years.

---------- Post added February-7th-2013 at 11:39 AM ----------

I didn't realize that Grimm was hurt so much towards the end of his career compared to Joe Jacoby. I'd love to be in the HOF voting committee room and hear some of the arguments against putting Big Joe in the Hall. Being on an offensive line that went to 4 SB's and won 3, with 3 different QB's is something that no player in the HOF today can say. The Hogs made Mark Rypien, Doug Williams and Theisman stars. Jacoby was the rock on that line. I miss hearing/seeing John Madden talk about Jacoby. He loved him.
Dave Butz was another guy that Madden loved who doesn't get the HOF consideration he deserves. Butz was a force at DT for the Skins. Nobody pushed big Butz around and he never got the recognition he deserved.
I would put Jacoby and Butz in the Hall over Grimm.