The Hill: House Pannel Votes To Place Holder in Contempt Of Congress

[The Evil Genius]

I doubt it will be his Iran-Contra. Obama is not as popular as Reagan was back then, no one here really cared about Nicaragua, no American died due to the screw up, and the Democrats didn't have the balls to call Reagan a liar to his face the way Darrell Issa happily will.

The irony of it being Darrell Issa accusing someone of doing something illegal still cracks me up.

---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 11:42 AM ----------

Oh, and I doubt F&F is the dirtiest of our government's doings.

[Popeman38]

I never heard that, but I admit I am still getting up to speed on this. Do you have a link for that?

I cannot find a link that states the number, but here is what I did find. I will dig a little more tonight after work.

Holder has provided 7,600 documents while the committee has issued subpoenas asking for tens of thousands more over a botched federal program that resulted in guns getting into the hands of Mexican criminals.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...#ixzz1ySHrA7KO

Holder told reporters he would not turn over documents on the gun-smuggling probe called Operation Fast and Furious unless Issa agreed to another meeting. The attorney general said he would explain what is in the materials at that time. Holder wants an assurance from Issa that the transfer of the records would satisfy a subpoena from the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee that Issa chairs.
http://www.trivalleycentral.com/arti...e793414833.txt

[ABQCOWBOY]

This thing really does have mushroom potential now that I think a little more on it. If the numbers that are being thrown around are accurate, 150 to 200 Mexican National deaths credited to these guns, that creates even more issues for the administration.

For example, how do you say that you are concerned about illegal immigrants on the one hand and yet, allow this business of gun running that is killing Mexicans on the other side of the boarder? This thing could be far reaching on many fronts.

Regardless of if that is a true statement or not, that could easily become the perception.

[tiger187126]

This thing really does have mushroom potential now that I think a little more on it. If the numbers that are being thrown around are accurate, 150 to 200 Mexican National deaths credited to these guns, that creates even more issues for the administration.

For example, how do you say that you are concerned about illegal immigrants on the one hand and yet, allow this business of gun running that is killing Mexicans on the other side of the boarder? This thing could be far reaching on many fronts.

Regardless of if that is a true statement or not, that could easily become the perception.

a mexican state prosecutors brother was killed by one of these guns:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep...rious-20110920

can you imagine if this happened the other way around?

[Predicto]

I haven't read much about Operation Fast and Furious, but it seems like the dirtiest of government business. Obama evoking executive privilege makes it all the more fishy to me.

How bad do you think this is going to get if Obama can be directly connected to it? Will this be worthy of impeachment if he is connected directly to it?

If Obama can be shown to been closely involved in the planning of the operation, and to have lied about his involvement, sure. Why not?

If it was just stupidity on the part of ATF people, and Obama was briefed about it part way through (along with the 10,000 other things that the Executive Branch does that he doesn't personally direct), then no way. Horrific screwups happen in every administration, and they don't lead to inpeachment.

---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 12:28 PM ----------

I cannot find a link that states the number, but here is what I did find. I will dig a little more tonight after work.

Holder has provided 7,600 documents while the committee has issued subpoenas asking for tens of thousands more over a botched federal program that resulted in guns getting into the hands of Mexican criminals.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...#ixzz1ySHrA7KO

Holder told reporters he would not turn over documents on the gun-smuggling probe called Operation Fast and Furious unless Issa agreed to another meeting. The attorney general said he would explain what is in the materials at that time. Holder wants an assurance from Issa that the transfer of the records would satisfy a subpoena from the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee that Issa chairs.
http://www.trivalleycentral.com/arti...e793414833.txt

Thanks for looking.

Seems to me like your second link kind of shows game-playing on both sides, wouldn't you say?

[Larry]

If I was Mexico, I'd be pissed as hell. Same with the family of Mr. Terry. This was an incredibly stupid idea.

Yeah, at least the way I've heard this operation portrayed (Hey, let's sell truckloads of military weapons to known gun runners, and then intentionally let them go, with no attempt to track them after that) sounds like a plan that's so obviously ****ed up, that I have troubly thinking that it wasn't intentionally ****ed up.

I confess, I've been trying for some time to come up with some explanation for what their plan was.

And, I have to confess, that the only explanation I've been able to come up with, is a really rotten one. Well, OK, I think I've come up with two really rotten ones.

The first is that we intentionally wanted to flood Mexico with military weapons, in the hopes that after they got flooded, Mexico would be forced to ask for our help.

The second is that we intentionally gave military weapons to know gun runners, so that when there's an explosion in gun violence from US-sold guns, we can use it as an excuse for more gun control.

I really hope that my theories are simply conspiracy theories.

But I confess, those are the theories that I come up with.

[Predicto]

This thing really does have mushroom potential now that I think a little more on it. If the numbers that are being thrown around are accurate, 150 to 200 Mexican National deaths credited to these guns, that creates even more issues for the administration.

For example, how do you say that you are concerned about illegal immigrants on the one hand and yet, allow this business of gun running that is killing Mexicans on the other side of the boarder? This thing could be far reaching on many fronts.

Regardless of if that is a true statement or not, that could easily become the perception.

I suspect that Americans won't care about Mexican deaths any more than they cared about all the murder, torture and rape by the people we armed and funded in Nicaragua in the 1980s.

The fact that an American died will be a much bigger deal.

---------- Post added June-21st-2012 at 12:46 PM ----------

The first is that we intentionally wanted to flood Mexico with military weapons, in the hopes that after they got flooded, Mexico would be forced to ask for our help.

The second is that we intentionally gave military weapons to know gun runners, so that when there's an explosion in gun violence from US-sold guns, we can use it as an excuse for more gun control.

I really hope that my theories are simply conspiracy theories.

But I confess, those are the theories that I come up with.

Both of those theories are pretty dumb, IMO. First of all, they DID attempt to track the guns. The whole purpose of the stupid program was to try to figure out who the "straw purchasers" were, the people buying guns in the USA on behalf of the Mexican drug cartels. They were trying to break the entire gun trafficing network at one time. They have indicted a couple dozen buyers, but the program is clearly a failure.

Second, the program was not that large, not nearly large enough to destablise Mexico. It involved two thousand weapons, about half of which were recovered. There are more guns than that in a single neighborhood in Houston.

Third, there is zero reason to think that Obama is trying to impose gun control on anyone. He has done absolutely nothing in that regard since he came into office.

Here's a nice summary of the whole thing from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal

[ABQCOWBOY]

I suspect that Americans won't care about Mexican deaths any more than they cared about all the murder, torture and rape by the people we armed and funded in Nicaragua in the 1980s.

The fact that an American died will be a much bigger deal.

I think that in the general terms of Americans, you are probably right but in terms of the Hispanic vote specifically, I don't know if that would be accurate.

[Predicto]

I think that in the general terms of Americans, you are probably right but in terms of the Hispanic vote specifically, I don't know if that would be accurate.

I don't know. I think you would have to show that Obama's people WANTED Mexicans to die. I don't think anyone is claiming that, not even Darrell Issa. As dumb as it was, the whole point of the program was to try and cut off the networks supplying guns to the Mexican drug cartels.

[NoCalMike]

From my understanding, Holder was informed the gun running was stopped, when it was really still going on despite not being approved by thr administration,so then he told Chuck Grassley that the initial letter he had written saying activities were over had to be retracted which of course is the point in the timeline all this was magically leaked to the press. Holder was released 1000's of documents leading up to the death of the agent, however because of ongoing investigations into the murder Holder isn't going to release docs that could blow covers of undercover agents and info that could ruin the case.

Fast & Furious may very well have been a horrible idea, and it resulted in tragedy, but to act like Holder or Obama should be in jail? Please. Just another witch hunt once every other tactic has failed. This will result in nothing except a ton of wasted tax payer time and money as well as more dissolutionment with the (R) party.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I don't know. I think you would have to show that Obama's people WANTED Mexicans to die. I don't think anyone is claiming that, not even Darrell Issa. As dumb as it was, the whole point of the program was to try and cut off the networks supplying guns to the Mexican drug cartels.

No, I think that all you would have to demonstrate is that this Administration doesn't really care about the Hispanic's. I think that this can be used to illustrate the fact that all they are really interested in is their vote.

I agree with you that the President's intentions probably weren't to facilitate Mexican National's deaths but as yet, I have not seen any proof that supports the claim that all the Administration was trying to do is stop the networks supplying guns. This is the rub IMO. If that is what was trying to be done, then you have to release those documents in order to have credibility with that stance. If you don't release the Documents, then you can say that all day but nobody is going to give it credence. It's a pickle.

[Predicto]

No, I think that all you would have to demonstrate is that this Administration doesn't really care about the Hispanic's. I think that this can be used to illustrate the fact that all they are really interested in is their vote.

I think someone in the GOP will try to make that claim, but I seriously doubt it will resonate in the Hispanic community in such a way that they choose to vote GOP. Maybe it will dampen enthusiasm and suppress the hispanic vote a little, however, that's possible.

I agree with you that the President's intentions probably weren't to facilitate Mexican National's deaths

I like how you are assuming that the President himself intended Fast and Furious to happen, and that he only "probably" didn't want to kill Mexican nationals. Very objective thinking there.

(I'm going to assume you misspoke a little...)

but as yet, I have not seen any proof that supports the claim that all the Administration was trying to do is stop the networks supplying guns. This is the rub IMO. If that is what was trying to be done, then you have to release those documents in order to have credibility with that stance. If you don't release the Documents, then you can say that all day but nobody is going to give it credence. It's a pickle.

Wait, what? You don't think there is any proof that the point of this was to get at the gun smuggling networks? Really? The thousands of documents already released and the days of hearings that have already happened prove that without a shadow of a doubt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner

What possible other purpose could you come up with?

[Popeman38]

Thanks for looking.

Seems to me like your second link kind of shows game-playing on both sides, wouldn't you say?

Figured out where my figure came from. It was from Holder's testimony about how he had turned over 7,600 documents of the 140,000 DoJ reviewed to comply with the subpoena. Do DoJ classified 147,600 documents as relevant enough to be reviewed and released 7,600 documents. Apparently, the documents they won't release are internal memos and emails after the Feb 2011 letter that was withdrawn as inaccurate that stated top DoJ officials had only recently learned of F&F.

Will try to find a transcript of Holder's testimony to link to that will illustrate the numbers.

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think someone in the GOP will try to make that claim, but I seriously doubt it will resonate in the Hispanic community in such a way that they choose to vote GOP. Maybe it will dampen enthusiasm and suppress the hispanic vote a little, however, that's possible.

That is exactly how I see it. Seriously Predicto, if I'm looking at what's going on with this Administration, as a Hispanic Voter, I'm asking myself why the President would offer this two year Amnesty plan as opposed to a well defined Dream Act Law passed through congress. I'm asking myself, if this gun running thing is true, what does that say about what this Administration thinks of Hispanics, why did he not act when he had super majorities? Of course, i am playing devils advocate here but I do agree. Hispanics don't have to vote for the GOP. They just have to decide not to support the President in the next election and that could very well happen.

I like how you are assuming that the President himself intended Fast and Furious to happen, and that he only "probably" didn't want to kill Mexican nationals. Very objective thinking there.

(I'm going to assume you misspoke a little...)

No, I did not intend to imply any such thing. In your earlier post, you said Obama's people so I said the President. It was nothing more then that.

Wait, what? You don't think there is any proof that the point of this was to get at the gun smuggling networks? Really? The thousands of documents already released and the days of hearings that have already happened prove that without a shadow of a doubt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Gunrunner

What possible other purpose could you come up with?

I think that facts might suggest one thing but perceptions carries the day. If he doesn't produce all the documents, people will think he's trying to cover things up. That's just how it works. You have people out there today who believe that GWB intentionally lied to Congress and the American people even though there is evidence that the Brits supplied this information to the U.S. It's just how it often works. I think it's almost impossible to control these kinds of things once they pick up momentum.

You don't know what you don't know and that's always there in these kinds of things.

[Teller]

The first is that we intentionally wanted to flood Mexico with military weapons, in the hopes that after they got flooded, Mexico would be forced to ask for our help.

We won't fix our own side of the border. I doubt we would try to coerce Mexico into asking for help with theirs.

I do find the "gun control" theory intriguing. I think it's bunk, but it's at least plausible.

(FWIW, I think it's bunk because I heard Rush say it before I read your post, not vice versa.)