The Fiscal Cliff thread.

[PeterMP]

You guys are blind if you think JUST one party is at fault here. Of course I back the GOP more (and many time begrudingly so because they are many times equally hopeless and full of hot air) but man, Obama has NEVER issued any kind of budget and guess what? No real spending cuts or programs cuts are being offered from that side and he believes he has a mandate from the people, which he's never had given the percentages of the election. Argghh. I just hate how fake both sides are at this point.

Obama has proposed to cut military spending and other programs at various times:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...lan/50470916/1

Including recently:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...918859962.html

Now, I guess you might not consider those detailed proposed cuts enough detailed proposed cuts, but some are there.

[Larry]

I don't think it's quite that simple but heck, my post was using broad strokes as well so you just followed suit. I'm perfectly fine with the GOP getting torn up in the next cycle. The Dems can own it like they'll have to own California.

Translation: If the Dems cannot instantly undo decades of intentionally inflicted damage, then the Republicans fully intend to claim that this proves that we should go back to inflicting more intentional damage.

(The bad news it: I believe that you're right. And I believe that it will work.)

[Fergasun]

They are going to dance around, and around until at some point the GOP says: "we'll raise tax rates if we get some of our entitlement reforms..." at which point Obama will say "no deal!" and then another week he'll say "deal".
Here's the problem with the GOP, and I hope they know it: If we go over the "fiscal cliff" than the tax rates for the rich go up. At that point the deal will be "cut middle class taxes".
They have to realize that! The American people have to realize that!

[Tulane Skins Fan]

You guys are blind if you think JUST one party is at fault here. Of course I back the GOP more (and many time begrudingly so because they are many times equally hopeless and full of hot air) but man, Obama has NEVER issued any kind of budget and guess what? No real spending cuts or programs cuts are being offered from that side and he believes he has a mandate from the people, which he's never had given the percentages of the election. Argghh. I just hate how fake both sides are at this point.

How did you get from my post that I completely absolve the democrats and Obama?

I just said I'd like the GOP to show what they really want.

[Fergasun]

MSNBC: Bowels Rejects Boehner's 'Boweles Plan'

"While I'm flattered the Speaker would call something 'the Bowles plan,' the approach outlined in the letter Speaker Boehner sent to the President does not represent the Simpson-Bowles plan, nor is it the Bowles plan. In my testimony before the Joint Select Committee on Deficit Reduction, I simply took the mid-point of the public offers put forward during the negotiations to demonstrate where I thought a deal could be reached at that time. "The Joint Select Committee failed to reach a deal, and circumstances have changed since then."

Wonkbook: Boehner vs. Simpson Bowles Plan

Wonkbook’s Number of the Day: $2.6 trillion. That’s the tax increase we’d get if we passed the Simpson-Bowles plan today. Speaker Boehner’s counteroffer, which he traces back to Bowles, includes $800 billion in taxes, or a bit less than a third of what the Simpson-Bowles plan calls for. Perhaps that’s why Erskine Bowles says the Boehner plan is not his plan.

Just as I suspected; it's probably less Bowles and more Ryan's "Path to Prosperity" with raised taxes, I mean "revenue".

CapitalGainsAndGames.com: Yesterday's Most Important Fiscal Cliff News Wasn't The GOP's "Proposal"

Second, earlier in the day, the House Republican caucus announced that House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) had punished several GOP representatives with tea party connections for not loyally supporting the leadership the past few years by removing them from their committee assignments. This clearly was an attempt by Boehner to consolidate his power, discipline tea party members, and make it more likely that whenever he negotiates a fiscal cliff deal (January still seems more likely than December), it will be more likely to pass the House. That should strengthen his standing with the White House and put him in a better position to negotiate.

I really don't want to give updates to the "fiscal cliff" daily; so I'll just assume that in 2 weeks there won't really be in any change in the situation... GOP and Democrats will continue to stand firm (in public) and in private will be lukewarm to doing a deal.

I wish they would negotiate something and put it in front of the American people like; maybe 2 weeks ahead of voting for it. Is that too hard to ask in this democracy or are the tea-party and left-wingers so firm that whenever a deal is made both of them will scream "bloody murder! betrayal!" long enough and loud enough to convince the American people to scuttle it... nah... pretty sure the country is ready for a deal...

[Tulane Skins Fan]

The GOP needs to own something concrete in this debate. I give them credit for saying they want to increase medicare to 67 years old. But, they are terrified to represent something concrete on taxes. Is it Grover Norquist? I don't know.

Then I heard that Jim DeMint, the tea partier, used the code words "job killing" for Boehner's plan.

I think we are going over the cliff. I don't think Boehner can put together a coalition of republicans to get behind any plan.

Its kinda funny that Boehner is calling his plan "Simpson-Bowles." Look at this article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...impson-bowles/

1) Simpson-Bowles ends the the Bush tax cuts for income over $250,000.

2) There are a lot of tax increases in Simpson-Bowles.

3) There are so many tax increases that the plan is nearly 1:1.

Etc.

[JMS]

I like the idea of raising retirement ages. For Medicare and for SS. And not just to 67.

Really expected the Dems to propose it, but I'll certainly take it.

Yes absolutely Let's raise the retirement age and weaken Medicare so we can keep Mitt Romney's tax rate at around 12.9%... That makes perfect sense to me.

---------- Post added December-4th-2012 at 03:29 PM ----------

You guys are blind if you think JUST one party is at fault here.

I think the tax code as it stands today is so tilted to the wealthy that the entire country was blind. I don't think folks are pissed because they are blind today,, I think they are pissed because they are suddenly aware... And I am really getting tired of the, "sure the GOP is morally bankrupt and worthless".. when they get exposed as such; but "the Dems are just as bad", argument.... That's really an argument against accountability.... Which is the only argument supporters of the GOP have left. The argument against accountability.

Of course I back the GOP more (and many time begrudingly so because they are many times equally hopeless and full of hot air) but man, Obama has NEVER issued any kind of budget and guess what? No real spending cuts or programs cuts are being offered from that sideand he believes he has a mandate from the people, which he's never had given the percentages of the election. Argghh. I just hate how fake both sides are at this point.

You need to get a new source for information. An unbiased one. Obama has already agreed and implemented more cuts than the revenue he's proposed implementing. If Obama's proposal was implemented as is it would mean about $ 2 in cuts to every $ 1 in new revenue...

The argument from the right that Obama hasn't made serious proposals is spurious. It's about as accurate as Obama being a socialist or communist or foreign national. which are arguments made by the same folks who claim Obama hasn't made any serious proposals.

Dude, only one side in this discussion is continuously caught lying to the American public.. and it's not the Dems. I'm not saying the Dem's are always right... I'm saying in this generation the dems are mostly right while the Republicans are nominating whackadoodles and witches for higher office.

[deejaydana]

Dude, only one side in this discussion is continuously caught lying to the American public.. and it's not the Dems.

Both parties lie to the public and this discussion is no different. The "cuts" that we are talking about are miniscule in the grand picture that Obama has proposed but his bigger goal is to explode the size of government so it's what I expect. The GOP is a mess and has their own issues but I hold both in disregard. And in regards to checking different news sources I regulary read approximately 20+ sources from across the spectrum so I don't think I need to expand this but thanks for the suggestion.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Republicans losing blame game on fiscal cliff

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...cliff/?hpid=z1

A majority of Americans say that if the country goes over the fiscal cliff on Dec. 31, congressional Republicans should bear the brunt of the blame, according to a new Washington Post-Pew Research Center poll, the latest sign that the GOP faces a perilous path on the issue between now and the end of the year.

While 53 percent of those surveyed say the GOP would (and should) lose the fiscal cliff blame game, just 27 percent say President Obama would be deserving of more of the blame. Roughly one in 10 (12 percent) volunteer that both sides would be equally to blame.
Those numbers are largely unchanged from a Post-Pew survey conducted three weeks ago and suggest that for all of the back and forth in Washington on the fiscal cliff, there has been little movement in public perception. The numbers also explain why Republicans privately fret about the political dangers of going over the cliff, while Democrats are more sanguine about such a prospect.

Link for rest

Again, if I am President Obama I make NO DEAL before the new Congress is sworn in.

Its a huge win-win for the Democrats.

1) Republicans will face major backlash with no deal made and will face heavy losses in 2014

2) President Obama can come back with his deal that will at that point lower taxes.

I see no reason why the cliff will be avoided. The rewards for 1 party are too great

[JMS]

Both parties lie to the public and this discussion is no different. The "cuts" that we are talking about are miniscule in the grand picture that Obama has proposed

The cuts are miniscule... relative to the deficit and the tax hikes are even more miniscule... Obama's position is $2 worth of cuts for $1 worth of tax hikes which will yield us about 15% of deficit reduction as the economy continues to grow us out of the hole. It is a very conservative rational plan which will put us on the road to a fiscal health while not abandoning our elderly, sick or middle class.

but his bigger goal is to explode the size of government so it's what I expect.

I think you don't know the President at all. Your opinion of him was shaped during the first election and hasn't evolved at all. The guy who passed fiscally neutral healthcare and has held the growth of government down to record lows is all of the sudden going to revert into the communist / socialist you always knew he was.?.. only never had any evidence of?.. That's just not reality based, although I'm sure your new sources repeat such a charge several times a day. Course those sources were the same ones calling him a communist 4 years ago or the most liberal president ever... aren't they.!... Hell man I wish he was such a guy... We need the kind of Investment in our infrastructure such a guy would yield... But Obama is not that guy. He's is Mr. Pragmatic Conservative. He's the guy who kept Gitmo open, who addopted a Republican healthcare reform plan, who gave up on single payer system before the debate even started on healthcare. He's the guy who increased the war in Afghanistan and followed Bush's plans / dates to end the war in Iraq... Obama is not the far left character you've been told he was.

There is nothing in his first term actions which support your fear.

And in regards to checking different news sources I regulary read approximately 20+ sources from across the spectrum so I don't think I need to expand this but thanks for the suggestion.

I read the Drudge Report too. The fact that you don't know Obama shrank the size of the deficit relative to GDP by 30% in his first four years, and that he's proposing $2 worth of cuts for every $1 worth of tax increases... Or that the kind of tax increase he's talking about would mean less than a 1% overall tax hike on a guy like Mitt Romney bringing his 12.9% tax rate up to a whopping 13.4% should highlight how poorly informed you are.

Not to mention we aren't talking about growing government, we are talking about paying for the growth which literally all occurred under George W. Bush!!!

Doesn't mean you aren't working to inform yourself.. as you said 20+ new sources is impressive. Maybe you should examine and change which sources of information you read cause there are a lot of them out there which aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

Here are a couple I would recommend...

- LA Times
- NY Times
- Washington Post
- Washington Times
- Boston Globe
- Miami Herald
- Christian Science Monitor

Avoid anything which has an eagle on the front page or a fat guy which a **** eating grin... or pretends to be overly patriotic.

[Larry]

Both parties lie to the public and this discussion is no different. The "cuts" that we are talking about are miniscule in the grand picture that Obama has proposed but his bigger goal is to explode the size of government so it's what I expect. The GOP is a mess and has their own issues but I hold both in disregard. And in regards to checking different news sources I regulary read approximately 20+ sources from across the spectrum so I don't think I need to expand this but thanks for the suggestion.

Then why are you pathologically incapable of making a post without pulling right wing talking points out of your Philly?

---------- Post added December-4th-2012 at 07:19 PM ----------

I see no reason why the cliff will be avoided. The rewards for 1 party are too great

I hope you're wrong.

I think that the last time we had political theater like this, the main reason why we had it was because the Republicans believed that doing so would harm the country, and the Democrats would be blamed for it.

And I had a lot of unkind words to say about a political party that would do that.

Therefore, I really hope that you're wrong, and that the Dems aren't now thinking the same things (and coming to the same conclusion.)

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

And I am really getting tired of the, "sure the GOP is morally bankrupt and worthless".. when they get exposed as such; but "the Dems are just as bad", argument.... That's really an argument against accountability.... Which is the only argument supporters of the GOP have left. The argument against accountability.

This can't be said enough. This whole "both sides equally suck/lie/cheat/etc" false equivalency bull**** is a major reason we are where we are. How do people get held responsible like that? It's simply bull****.


Btw JMS, thank you for finally getting a spell check. You've always been one of my favorite posters but your spelling issues really did take away from your posts/arguments. Hated to see it because it distracted people from what you wrote. Now you're completely on point.

[Elessar78]

Without being said, it all goes back to Bush and this gigantic mess he created. The Bush tax cuts, the 2 wars, prescription drug benefit 8 years later and we're still digging ourselves out of his mess. I don't know how anyone could've even contemplated going back to that kind of "fiscally responsible" leadership. If Progressives are tax and spend, then the GOP can't balance a damn check book. We got two wars to fund? Let's cut revenue.

That's what ideology is. Being stared in the face by common sense and still thinking you're right despite overwhelming evidence.

[Hubbs]

Business people choosing profits over long term interests of the nation. Politicians choosing getting into office over long term interests of the nation. It's all natural, normal, and expected human behavior. If these guys wouldn't do it, somebody else would be in their place right now. Free market

Right, because nothing screams "market dynamics" like a congressional district.

[Larry]

Without being said, it all goes back to Bush and this gigantic mess he created. The Bush tax cuts, the 2 wars, prescription drug benefit 8 years later and we're still digging ourselves out of his mess. I don't know how anyone could've even contemplated going back to that kind of "fiscally responsible" leadership. If Progressives are tax and spend, then the GOP can't balance a damn check book. We got two wars to fund? Let's cut revenue.

That's what ideology is. Being stared in the face by common sense and still thinking you're right despite overwhelming evidence.

Pointing out that, while the current levels of deficit are almost 0% Obama's fault, they certainly aren't 100% W's, either.

The main reason for our current deficits is "the economy sucks".

Yeah, W's tax cuts increased the deficit some. So did the wars and the drugs. But mostly, it's the economy.

(And, while I think a case can be made that Republican policies are partially to blame for the economy sucking, IMO, that's a more tangential argument, and one that really can't be proven.)