The Fiscal Cliff thread.

[Larry]

The part I find ironic (OK, maybe "dishonest" is a better word) are the large numbers of people who will willingly send the nation's economy over a cliff, rather than agree to raise taxes by 2%, on the top 2%, but who are actually in favor of raising payroll taxes by 2%, on the lower 98%. And who say it's because of their solemn pledge to oppose all tax increases.

[DM72]

I'm not the biggest political guy, but have they're that has had a harder time getting bills passed than President Obama? It seems like the GOP is making it their mission to make the president look bad.

[Fergasun]

People really think the Senate is going to move first on fiscal cliff legislation? I always thought it would be House, then Senate, then perhaps some conference bill. At the very least I always thought it was Obama and Boehner negotiate and come to an agreement that both GOP and Democrats agree on. This seems like a ploy for the GOP to blame a failure in the Senate on the Democrats... which might work. I would be thinking there is no deal unless there is a deal for everything. I'm not even sure they agree on the scope of the deal (ie. does it agree debt ceiling, are we going after entitlement programs, etc.)

Aye, aye, aye is there's no 3rd party that gets started after these fiascos the past two years (versus some 3rd "party" astroturf) than I don't know what to think about our Democracy.

[Larry]

People really think the Senate is going to move first on fiscal cliff legislation?

They already have.

Months ago.

The Senate had a bill, to extend the Bush tax cuts for 98% of taxpayers. (Permanently, I think. But I'm not sure.)

(Note: This proposal would have been a tax cut for all taxpayers. It's just that people who made more than $250K would have all gotten the same tax cut as if they'd made $250K. The guy who made $250K and the guy who made $10M would have the same tax cut. (In dollars, not in percentage.))

In back-to-back, near party line (there was like one person who broke party ranks) votes, the Senate:

Rejected the Republican attempt to attach the tax cuts for the top 2% to the bill.
Passed the bill.

(The Republicans agreed to stop filibustering the bill, if the Dems would allow them to have a vote on the amendment.)

The bill has been in the House, since then, where no votes have been taken.

[Fergasun]

I'd really like to know what's going to change at the end of the year and into the first week of January. This is really stupid and its been going on for pretty much 2 years now (recalling the debt ceiling deal which lead to this "fiscal cliff"). It just looks like a nice hand-wrestling match between Boehner and Obama on who gets credit-blame for whatever is going to happen... now maybe it has to do with Boehner's speakership being on the line January 3?

So the GOP is able to block Democractic fiscal policy in the Senate (because they can filibuster). The Senate is able to block GOP fiscal policy that comes from the House (because the House can't pass bills). The President is able to block GOP fiscal policy period (because he signs the bills). Why the hell couldn't whatever they are going to do in a couple of days have gotten done *months ago*! That's the $1T question I have... my answer is that the GOP believes fiscal policy issues are a winner for them (ie. "out of control government spending"), and also once the fight over fiscal policy ends, we'll get to a gun-control policy fight (which again the GOP can slow down as much as possible).

In my opinion, the GOP should have thrown out or even debated some level of fiscal policy that they could stomach (ie. tax cuts for those under $400k) months ago (as in, right after the election... that's not months). Instead of dragging the country though this again... and this is another foreshadowing of the debt ceiling debate... which we'll have again in a couple of months.

Does the GOP really think they are winning the public debate over this?

[Thiebear]

Ferguson:
For the Republicans: Hopefully new leadership as Boehner is the least communicative of the horribly communicative republicans. (his last statement made no sense and then no explanations of anything).
For the Democrats: blaming the republicans is working just fine from 90 angles.
for me? Approx. 300$ less a month?

[Fergasun]

Thiebear,
I'd bet that $300/month that no one under $250k sees those projected taxes.

This "fiscal cliff" nonesense is why the GOP is on the losing side in thie battle. People ultimately don't want to cut what they are getting from the government. I've seen articles with the people who make in the > $250k complaining about the tax hike they would get. No one cares that the tax hikes were supposed to be "temporary". The "doc fix" the "AMT patch" these things are not permament because they add something like $2.5T to the 10 year deficit projctions.

It seems, as a country we've made up our minds.... and Democrats realize this is a winning battle for them. If the GOP can't even get the chained-CPI in a deal (like the debt ceiling deal) than all they can do is keep discretionary spending down (or cut it). To be honest it doesn't even sound like the defense sequestration is going to be averted, only the taxes part of the "fiscal cliff". I guess that's a "win" for the GOP if you look at it in terms of cutting spending; but they intentionally cut defense (thanks tea party). Guess it's a win for the Tea party... thinking about this all hurts my brain....

[Stadium-Armory]

lol at foxnews.com leading with Benghazi as their main cover story the day before the fiscal cliff. Give it up already!

[Thiebear]

Thiebear,
I'd bet that $300/month that no one under $250k sees those projected taxes.

This "fiscal cliff" nonesense is why the GOP is on the losing side in thie battle. People ultimately don't want to cut what they are getting from the government. I've seen articles with the people who make in the > $250k complaining about the tax hike they would get. No one cares that the tax hikes were supposed to be "temporary". The "doc fix" the "AMT patch" these things are not permament because they add something like $2.5T to the 10 year deficit projctions.

It seems, as a country we've made up our minds.... and Democrats realize this is a winning battle for them. If the GOP can't even get the chained-CPI in a deal (like the debt ceiling deal) than all they can do is keep discretionary spending down (or cut it). To be honest it doesn't even sound like the defense sequestration is going to be averted, only the taxes part of the "fiscal cliff". I guess that's a "win" for the GOP if you look at it in terms of cutting spending; but they intentionally cut defense (thanks tea party). Guess it's a win for the Tea party... thinking about this all hurts my brain....

My 300 isn't what i'm getting from the government, its what i'm giving extra too the government... and that first 150 would come out January 15th timeframe.. i don't see it fixed by then.
And again no raises for 3 years and then a token promotion is not me Raking it in and now i should pay.. I've lost thousands and gained hundreds by just waiting this debacle out.

The rest of what your saying (probably all) went over my head. I''m look at it as a if it doesn't go through i owe until they finish re-electing leadership so February timeframe fix.

House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) rebuked President Obama's remarks on Republicans' role in fiscal cliff negotiations, slamming the president for his "ironic" statement on Sunday's "Meet the Press."

“Americans elected President Obama to lead, not cast blame," Boehner said in a Sunday statement. "The president’s comments today are ironic, as a recurring theme of our negotiations was his unwillingness to agree to anything that would require him to stand up to his own party. Needed cuts and reforms that the president agreed to just last year were no longer on the table, as he cited an inability to sell them to Democrats."

President Obama: Fiscal Cliff Failure Will Occur If GOP Can't Say Yes

Chicago Sun Times:

Obama daring Senate Republicans to filibuster fiscal cliff bill

That doesn't sound like Leadership as they are now pointing and blaming... its over this year.

[zoony]

We go over the cliff, Democrats introduce tax cut legislation for the middle class on January 4th

Republicans move to block, because they are whining *******s.

[Thiebear]

We go over the cliff, Democrats introduce tax cut legislation for the middle class on January 4th

Republicans move to block, because they are whining *******s.

Do republicans get to add or alter the bill in any way? or vote yes or else?
Skip all the rest of the actual fiscal cliff with 1trillion a year debt still for the next 4 years going past the line that says we can fix it?

4 possiblities i could find:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-1...ibilities-2013

http://seekingalpha.com/article/5780...-start-of-2013
This year also marks another era. For the first time, U.S. total debt has outpaced U.S. GDP in 2012. In 2002, U.S. debt was 6 trillion USD, while GDP was 10.6 trillion USD. Today, U.S. debt is 15.7 trillion USD, while GDP is 15.462 trillion USD. So basically, U.S. debt has crossed the GDP number at the inflection point of around 15.4 trillion USD. Hence a debt-to-GDP ratio of over 100%.

So Boehner fires TeaParty personnel from committee before asking for their 60 votes.
And the Dems make fun of Boehner during the talks?

That'll get you a deal...

On the eve of the historic vote coming this week, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee is pushing items in their "store" of gifts and clothing items mocking Boehner as the nation's "Weeper in Chief," a reference to his plight as boss of a divided Republican caucus and the ease at which the sensitive Ohio lawmaker gives up tears when he gets emotional.

In the featured sale category is a "Crying Boehner Can Koozie" for $7.95. The description says, "Want to see John Boehner cry? Buy this union made can koozie today to help us take Speaker Boehner's gavel."

For $24.95 there's a "Weeper of the House T-Shirt." That description reads: "In 2012, we're going to give this guy something to really cry about. This 100% cotton T-shirt is Union-made in the USA."

[SpringfieldSkins]

So............

This thing is really going to happen isn't it?

[Larry]

So............

This thing is really going to happen isn't it?

Assume so. At least temporarily.

Also assume that, a few weeks or months from now, they'll pass tax cuts for the lower 98%. And they'll be retroactive.

But the damage, in terms of confidence, and it's effect on the economy, will have been done.

[spjunkies]

Yeah, uhhh I can't afford any increases in taxes

Fix this **** please.

[Larry]

I've read some people saying that it's possible that a lot of folks paycheck s might not change right away. Because the folks who program the computers don't know what deal is going to be eventually reached, supposedly a lot if places haven't changed the withholding tables yet.

It's possible that a lot if folks won't get hammered for a paycheck or two.