The Fiscal Cliff thread.

[Popeman38]

No, but that doesn't mean everyone who buys an iPhone can buy a playstation can buy a nice vacation. A smartphone isn't exactly a status symbol either. I know someone with a droid who lives in a trailer. Sometimes it's just people buying the nice things they can, because really nice things are far more expensive.

A smart phone is a luxury. Minimum smart phone plan is $50/month. $600/year. Cut out cell phone, and you have a decent IRA.

If you want to argue that the middle class is under attack (and that seems to be the current rage), you must acknowledge that over the past 50 years the definition of the middle class had changed. 50 years ago, a middle class family had 1 job, 1 car, 1 TV (free over the air signal), took 1 vacation (driving). Bills consisted of water, sewer, phone, mortgage/rent, car. They saved 10%.

Today, the middle class ad 2 jobs, 2 cars (some more), 2+ TVs, 2 vacations. Bills include water, sewer, home phone, internet, cell phones, cable/satellite, multiple car payments.

[Bang]

50 years ago June could stay home while Ward went to work and could earn enough to feed the family working for a company that actually valued his employment.

Times do change.

~Bang

[HeluCopter29]

A smart phone is a luxury. Minimum smart phone plan is $50/month. $600/year. Cut out cell phone, and you have a decent IRA.

If you want to argue that the middle class is under attack (and that seems to be the current rage), you must acknowledge that over the past 50 years the definition of the middle class had changed. 50 years ago, a middle class family had 1 job, 1 car, 1 TV (free over the air signal), took 1 vacation (driving). Bills consisted of water, sewer, phone, mortgage/rent, car. They saved 10%.

Today, the middle class ad 2 jobs, 2 cars (some more), 2+ TVs, 2 vacations. Bills include water, sewer, home phone, internet, cell phones, cable/satellite, multiple car payments.

I will grant you that the standard of living, with time, has gone up. But I know families (and they know many families in the same position)who would today be considered middle class, and while yes, have what you describe do not have it in the way that more upper class middle class families do.

A disney vacation, and a vacation to a small town in Tennessee are not the same thing.

EDIT: And note that while a smart phone may be a luxury, there are more expensive luxuries and people who can afford many more expensive luxuries then the families that struggle to pay a smart phone bill.

[RedskinsFan44]

I believe the Democrats have already or are about to put forward an extension of the Bush "temporary" tax cuts for all income under 250k, so iit is not like they are taking an all or nothing stance. For all the rhetoric about the stimulus not working, the tax cuts did not prevent the collapse and have not brought about a recovery, even when coupled with the payroll tax cut. How much red ink for the tax cuts?

[Ignatius J.]

A smart phone is a luxury. Minimum smart phone plan is $50/month. $600/year. Cut out cell phone, and you have a decent IRA.

600 / yr makes a decent IRA? let's say you have that 600 for years 20 to 65, that's 45 * 600 ~27k. That's not a lot of money to retire on. Can interest help? yes, but we're in a zero interest rate environment right now and will be for the foreseeable future. 100k isn't even much of a nest egg for retirement, at 5% that works out to 5k per year, and that's at 5%!

[Larry]

Uh, yes, I'll certainly agree that 50 years ago, lots of middle class people didn't have air conditioning.

(I REALLY want to see some support for your claim that those people "saved 10%").

But do you really want to try to position yourself to claim that the middle class aren't being hit, as long as they still have air conditioning?

[chipwhich]

This thread isn't really going to turn into a discussion on American gluttony. Our poor are richer than a high percentage of the world.

[Jumbo]

I almost mentioned the Butt sisters, too. Hopefully, the young'uns here are scurrying to google & youtube.

[grhqofb5]

We have to increase tax revenue somewhere and since corporations aren't bringing the jobs back.....something has to give.

Gotta bring in more of those tax-payin illegal immigrant types.

[Yusuf06]

Maybe a good start would be not allowing any registered democrats or republicans to vote in the next election.

I knew there was a reason I liked you.

Sometimes it's just people buying the nice things they can, because really nice things are far more expensive.

Yeah, nice things like health insurance and a decent retirement.

I'm old and don't eat dog food. Although the occasional can of Dinty Moore slips by when I'm alone and lazy. Not sure there's much difference except DM has more liquid.

...and less meat.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Gotta bring in more of those tax-payin illegal immigrant types.

If I could hear your tone and inflection I would know which way you meant this....as it is....

[Son of Gadsden]

Why again is everyone so okay with taxing the upper class. "**** the upper class, we just care about ourselves!" I just don't get it. It's not my money, it's not my place to say what happens to it. Where does all this hatred for the upper class spawn from!? Yeah, there are rich douchebags out there. Hell, I've met plenty of poor people that were more stuck up. There are also GOOD MEN that have money that got there from working their asses off. If the Dems are for robbing the rich and giving to the poor, why are all the rich, douchebag actors DEMS!? The richest, most overpaid people in this country are Dems. Hell, Romney himself could run for the Dems if he wanted to.

I just don't buy, or even remotely understand all this class warfare crap, just seems like an illusion to keep us all distracted to me. We're all on the same team, it's a chain...and the more rich people there are, the better off we all are. It's called opportunity. If you're in sales, don't you want ridiculously rich people coming in your store to blow money left and right and get you your commission!? Or we could just spend all day coveting what they have and punishing success. When did capitalism become the bad guy? Okay, rant over, my bad. Didn't realize it was happening.

Anyway, how in the hell are the politicians we elected using us as the hostages? Aren't we supposed to be ruled by the people? Guess these are all rhetorical questions. Whatever. No matter how you slice it or what side you're on, this is bull****. The people need to take back this country. Listen to more Rage Against the Machine or something, I don't know what to tell you.

---------- Post added July-17th-2012 at 07:16 AM ----------

Maybe a good start would be not allowing any registered democrats or republicans to vote in the next election.

Jumbo, you are now my favorite mod ever.

[No Excuses]

Why again is everyone so okay with taxing the upper class. "**** the upper class, we just care about ourselves!" I just don't get it. It's not my money, it's not my place to say what happens to it. Where does all this hatred for the upper class spawn from!? Yeah, there are rich douchebags out there. Hell, I've met plenty of poor people that were more stuck up. There are also GOOD MEN that have money that got there from working their asses off. If the Dems are for robbing the rich and giving to the poor, why are all the rich, douchebag actors DEMS!? The richest, most overpaid people in this country are Dems. Hell, Romney himself could run for the Dems if he wanted to.

I just don't buy, or even remotely understand all this class warfare crap, just seems like an illusion to keep us all distracted to me. We're all on the same team, it's a chain...and the more rich people there are, the better off we all are. It's called opportunity. If you're in sales, don't you want ridiculously rich people coming in your store to blow money left and right and get you your commission!? Or we could just spend all day coveting what they have and punishing success. When did capitalism become the bad guy? Okay, rant over, my bad. Didn't realize it was happening.

Anyway, how in the hell are the politicians we elected using us as the hostages? Aren't we supposed to be ruled by the people? Guess these are all rhetorical questions. Whatever. No matter how you slice it or what side you're on, this is bull****. The people need to take back this country. Listen to more Rage Against the Machine or something, I don't know what to tell you.

Asking to close tax loopholes and creating a more balanced tax code does not mean that the Dems are intentionally trying to victimize the rich. This is a bunch of baloney spread around by the right wing media that the Dems don't favor capitalism and want to penalize the rich for being successful. 'Class warfare' is practiced by politicians on both sides of the aisle. The Republicans do it by convincing people that asking a reform in the tax code that might even hint towards creating it more balanced across income levels equals demonizing of the rich and destroying capitalist ideals.

As far as your second paragraph, considering the percentage of wealth in the top bracket has risen by a godly percentage over the last few decades, it would have shown that the middle class and lower class have benefited just as much. Except they haven't. A tiny percentage of the population has seen its wealth go up by as much as 275%, while the rest have barely noticed any significant difference. Why?

[Henry]

Why again is everyone so okay with taxing the upper class. "**** the upper class, we just care about ourselves!" I just don't get it. It's not my money, it's not my place to say what happens to it. Where does all this hatred for the upper class spawn from!? Yeah, there are rich douchebags out there. Hell, I've met plenty of poor people that were more stuck up. There are also GOOD MEN that have money that got there from working their asses off. If the Dems are for robbing the rich and giving to the poor, why are all the rich, douchebag actors DEMS!? The richest, most overpaid people in this country are Dems. Hell, Romney himself could run for the Dems if he wanted to.

I just don't buy, or even remotely understand all this class warfare crap, just seems like an illusion to keep us all distracted to me. We're all on the same team, it's a chain...and the more rich people there are, the better off we all are. It's called opportunity. If you're in sales, don't you want ridiculously rich people coming in your store to blow money left and right and get you your commission!? Or we could just spend all day coveting what they have and punishing success. When did capitalism become the bad guy? Okay, rant over, my bad. Didn't realize it was happening.

Anyway, how in the hell are the politicians we elected using us as the hostages? Aren't we supposed to be ruled by the people? Guess these are all rhetorical questions. Whatever. No matter how you slice it or what side you're on, this is bull****. The people need to take back this country. Listen to more Rage Against the Machine or something, I don't know what to tell you.

This isn't about hating the upper class. It's not about deciding the upper class is undeserving of their status, or that everyone should have the same amount of money or anything else.

It's about being in a recession. You don't balance the budget during a recession. You can't raise taxes across the board. History has shown taking those actions only makes things worse ... much worse. What you do is you artificially prop up the economy with government spending until the recession ends and THEN you worry about the deficit. (if you are a Keynesian that's what you do. If you're not that's a debate for another thread.)

So, if you need to increase spending, temporarily, to help the economy work past the recession, and you've just unnecessarily blown up the deficit during the previous decade fighting wars while simultaneously lowering taxes (as someone said earlier, a colossally stupid thing to do) and you want to mitigate your debt while avoiding crippling the economy further by taxing everyone to hell, one solution is to tax only the people who can currently afford it. That would be the upper class. Then, when the economy stabilizes, you can raise taxes on the middle class as well, or lower the taxes on the upper class again. Or decrease spending. Or all three. Whatever.

Now opponents to a Keynesian approach will paint this as an attack on the rich and the job creators. That liberals are blaming the rich for their problems and that the only solution is to cut spending, or raise taxes across the board, because that's fair, and that's capitalism ... or something. Anything else is re-distribution of wealth and therefore communism.

I happen to think history proves that utterly incorrect. But whatever. The point is, calling this policy an attack on the rich is a deflection. It's not about the rich. It's about what to do while the economy is in the tank. So far we've done nothing and the economy is still sputtering while the deficit continues to skyrocket, so I don't think that's a great plan.

[Teller]

I'm surprised to see the name of the thread starter attached to something like this. IMO, this is what the Tailgate needs. More honest criticism of our "own" side. Respect.