2013 Comprehensive NFL Draft Database

[Dukes and Skins]

Gotta say Monk great job on the analysis stuff. Being a guy who's versed in the 3-4 its good to see someone else show and explain it!

[Warpath11]

So what's the conclusion here? Draft almost pure BPA and end up with a team that's equal parts talented and checkered like Cincy? Somehow they've managed to cobble a nice little team out of that mess of talent. I'm fascinated to see how good they end up becoming.

Very nice post they are loaded with talent especially on defense. I think all of their CB on the depth chart were first rounders (Leon Hall, Nate Clements, Jason Allen, Terrence Newman, Dre Kirkpatrick and Adam Jones). Also, is Dontay Moch still with the Bengals? He is not listed on the depth chart or roster. You'd think he would be in the league somewhere with his other-worldly athleticism (never mind on Moch he is suspended by the league atm). I also noticed they have Thomas Howard (drafted by the Raiders due to his 40 time ) on their roster between him and Moch they have two of the fastest timed LBs in recent memory

[stevemcqueen1]

Very nice post they are loaded with talent especially on defense. I think all of their CB on the depth chart were first rounders (Leon Hall, Nate Clements, Jason Allen, Terrence Newman, Dre Kirkpatrick and Adam Jones). Also, is Dontay Moch still with the Bengals? He is not listed on the depth chart or roster. You'd think he would be in the league somewhere with his other-worldly athleticism (never mind on Moch he is suspended by the league atm). I also noticed they have Thomas Howard (drafted by the Raiders due to his 40 time ) on their roster between him and Moch they have two of the fastest timed LBs in recent memory

I had to look it up, Moch was suspended for four games for violating the banned substances policy.

You're right about every single one of their CBs being first round picks. That's ridiculous. All in all, that defense is loaded with size and speed.

[BobGriffin]

The Bengals also have Taylor Mays who may be the most Athletic Safety ever. Ran a sub 4.3 at 6'2 225ish. Hits like a freaking bull AND they have Reggie Nelson who was a playmaking MONSTER at Florida and who was also a first round pick lol

[Dukes and Skins]

The Bengals also have Taylor Mays who may be the most Athletic Safety ever. Ran a sub 4.3 at 6'2 225ish. Hits like a freaking bull AND they have Reggie Nelson who was a playmaking MONSTER at Florida and who was also a first round pick lol

Nelson has been an average safety in the pros and Mays has been eh as well.

[gorebd82]

Nelson has been an average safety in the pros and Mays has been eh as well.

That's the thing about the Bengals. They have a lot of investment in that defense, but I think the results have been mixed. Many of those guys have been inconsistent like Malauga or Rivers, who was sent to NYG. Carlos Dunlap was a hit. Leon Hall was a hit, but is coming back from an ACL. Many of those former high picks have been relative disappointments on their previous team and were picked up by Cincy (Mays, Nelson, Pacman, Jamaal Anderson, Thomas Howard) or are past their prime (Newman, Clements).

This recent draft class looks outstanding so it will be interesting to see if they have better success with this group.

---------- Post added September-20th-2012 at 03:07 PM ----------

I was looking over the Bengals roster and noticed that's a ridiculously talent laden team. Absolutely loaded with first round picks and guys who should have gone in the first round if not for intangible concerns that dropped them. And the odd former Probowl FA signing here and there. This team clearly sells out for pure talent and is now loaded with freaks as a result. In short, this is probably the organization with the most pure BPA approach to player acquisition in the NFL. It's an interesting test case for the sort of conundrum DG and Gore illuminated: building a team versus stockpiling talent.

I don't know that DG and I have such a difference in opinion about how to build through the draft, but more so about where we truly have "holes" on our team. Many see CB, S, and RT as major holes, but I don't think we have true holes on our team. I see decent options at those positions where we could use an upgrade. At CB and S, we need a stud that bumps everyone else down a spot on the depth chart. I think that the CB situation can be handled in FA. At RT, we could use an upgrade over Polumbus, but I feel that we can still find one in the 3rd. That leaves S as the biggest position of need, but I see us having a smart, but limited vet (Madieu), two very talented young vets with question marks (Tanard, Meriweather), and two prospects (Gomes, Bernstine). So for me, S is very similar to the Bengals seeing if these young talents can have better success in our system. Meriweather and Tanard are every bit as promising from a talent and pedigree standpoint as the guy acquired by Cincy.

Because I see no true holes I'm not really looking at what specific position needs to be filled, but rather what elements our team is missing. I think we need a disruptive player in the secondary, a disruptive player on the D line, a dominant OL on the right side, and an explosive offensive weapon not named RGIII.

DG doesn't think addressing the offensive skill positions is a major need because we have been productive. I think that too much of it is relying on RGIII's ability and because of that, defenses are sending the house at him. I think a versatile playmaker that can move all over formations keeps a defense off balance and honest so that they can't just focus on pounding RGIII. It's hard to get that type of player outside of the first couple of rounds so IMO, we need to grab that guy early. Someone like Denard is the only skill position I'd target because a true RB, WR, or TE would clog up the pipeline, but a slash type player takes a couple of reps at multiple positions and still allows the prospects in the pipeline to develop. That type of player makes everyone's job easier and completely opens up the offense.

Like I said, I'd like to see us sign Talib, draft Denard in the 2nd, address RT in the 3rd, and get a quality safety prospect in the 4th because this class is deep at the position. Fill all four needs. Talib is the best option at CB because I don't see a 2nd rounder necessarily beating out Deangelo and Josh. Same at S where I'm not confident a 2nd rounder will beat out Madieu, Tanard (I think the team putting him on the suspended/reserve list rather than cutting him shows that he's still a factor in our long term plans), and Meriweather. And I think the RB/WR/KR/QB guy is harder to find and has a bigger impact with a 2nd round pick than an OT will. We can find an OT in the 3rd easier than a dynamic playmaker.

[BobGriffin]

---------- Post added September-20th-2012 at 03:07 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

I don't know that DG and I have such a difference in opinion about how to build through the draft, but more so about where we truly have "holes" on our team. Many see CB, S, and RT as major holes, but I don't think we have true holes on our team. I see decent options at those positions where we could use an upgrade. At CB and S, we need a stud that bumps everyone else down a spot on the depth chart. I think that the CB situation can be handled in FA. At RT, we could use an upgrade over Polumbus, but I feel that we can still find one in the 3rd. That leaves S as the biggest position of need, but I see us having a smart, but limited vet (Madieu), two very talented young vets with question marks (Tanard, Meriweather), and two prospects (Gomes, Bernstine). So for me, S is very similar to the Bengals seeing if these young talents can have better success in our system. Meriweather and Tanard are every bit as promising from a talent and pedigree standpoint as the guy acquired by Cincy.

Because I see no true holes I'm not really looking at what specific position needs to be filled, but rather what elements our team is missing. I think we need a disruptive player in the secondary, a disruptive player on the D line, a dominant OL on the right side, and an explosive offensive weapon not named RGIII.

DG doesn't think addressing the offensive skill positions is a major need because we have been productive. I think that too much of it is relying on RGIII's ability and because of that, defenses are sending the house at him. I think a versatile playmaker that can move all over formations keeps a defense off balance and honest so that they can't just focus on pounding RGIII. It's hard to get that type of player outside of the first couple of rounds so IMO, we need to grab that guy early. Someone like Denard is the only skill position I'd target because a true RB, WR, or TE would clog up the pipeline, but a slash type player takes a couple of reps at multiple positions and still allows the prospects in the pipeline to develop. That type of player makes everyone's job easier and completely opens up the offense.

Like I said, I'd like to see us sign Talib, draft Denard in the 2nd, address RT in the 3rd, and get a quality safety prospect in the 4th because this class is deep at the position. Fill all four needs. Talib is the best option at CB because I don't see a 2nd rounder necessarily beating out Deangelo and Josh. Same at S where I'm not confident a 2nd rounder will beat out Madieu, Tanard (I think the team putting him on the suspended/reserve list rather than cutting him shows that he's still a factor in our long term plans), and Meriweather. And I think the RB/WR/KR/QB guy is harder to find and has a bigger impact with a 2nd round pick than an OT will. We can find an OT in the 3rd easier than a dynamic playmaker.

I'd take Denard in the 2nd and Barner in the 5th. The fakes/misdirection plays you could conjure up with those two in the offense would be S I C K

[Laron Burgundy]

You're still assuming a lot that Denard will be able to transfer into an rb/wr role. When was the last time a former qb succeeded at that? I can think of MAJOR failures like Matt Jones and Pat White. I think it's easier said than done. He'll be borderline useless as a wr if he can't catch and run routes and even with his natural running ability I think he'd be hard pressed to run in the nfl like a traditional rb would. Personally, a player like that is just a small wrinkle in a successful offense. We need the workhorses first. The best offenses aren't built off scatbacks being major contributors.

On that note, clearly the greatest scatback prospect in college right now is De'Anthony Thomas. If he stays his senior season we may have a shot at him, OR he may fall due to his weight, but that kid is just unbelievable. He might be more of a dream to get than Denard, but I think he is a far safer prospect. And by that time hopefully we would have enough of an offense built up that he wouldn't be expected to be a major contributor.

[gorebd82]

You're still assuming a lot that Denard will be able to transfer into an rb/wr role. When was the last time a former qb succeeded at that? I can think of MAJOR failures like Matt Jones and Pat White. I think it's easier said than done. He'll be borderline useless as a wr if he can't catch and run routes and even with his natural running ability I think he'd be hard pressed to run in the nfl like a traditional rb would. Personally, a player like that is just a small wrinkle in a successful offense. We need the workhorses first. The best offenses aren't built off scatbacks being major contributors.

On that note, clearly the greatest scatback prospect in college right now is De'Anthony Thomas. If he stays his senior season we may have a shot at him, OR he may fall due to his weight, but that kid is just unbelievable. He might be more of a dream to get than Denard, but I think he is a far safer prospect. And by that time hopefully we would have enough of an offense built up that he wouldn't be expected to be a major contributor.

Absolutely Denard has to look good in the Senior Bowl and pre-draft process as a route runner and catching the ball. I think that Matt Jones had a drug problem/work ethic issues and Pat didn't have his heart in it. Both teams also tried to put those guys into more traditional WR roles. A Randall Cobb or Sproles type role seems to fit Denard. He is way bigger than your typical scat back. He has more of a Jahvid Best or young Reggie Bush build. I'd like to see him catch drags, screens, and swing passes, but let him do what he does best...run.

With our coaches showing a willingness to run a creative offense with many elements of the spread option, I think there's room for this hybrid player. If we ran the traditional WCO, I wouldn't be even considering this. But lined up in shotgun net to RGIII, there's no way to defend two duel threat players. Denard will get the some of the room to run that RGIII does because of the threat to throw. And I do think we have pieces in place and a potential workhorse in Morris to bring in this dynamic piece.

Look at how I compare us to offenses with similar personnel. Everything doesn't match up exactly as far as production yet, but it's more about role in the offense. Clearly, Hank needs to be the player Shanny says he can be to make this work.

Jordy Nelson - Marques Colston - Hankerson (big WR)
Jennings - Devery Henderson - Garçon
James Jones - Meachem - Josh Morgan
Lance Moore - Driver - Moss
Finley - Graham - Fred Davis
Cobb - Sproles - Denard Robinson
Pierre Thomas - Benson - Alfred Morris
Ingram - Starks - Helu

[DogofWar1]

One problem we had last week was that Kerrigan was constantly lining up against WRs when they showed us 3 and 4 WR sets. I know Haslett hates to go nickel, he loves keeping us in a 3-4-4 set, which forces our starting guys into mismatches. Would it make sense to try and find an ILB who can sort of double as a nickel CB, allowing us to switch between 3-4-4 and 3-3-5 on the fly? I don't think Riley, Robinson, or any of the other ILBs we currently have quite fit that role, and personally I'd like to keep Kerrigan and Orakpo out of that role and rushing the pass. I almost want a 3rd safety out there, sort of deal.

[darrelgreenie]

I don't think we have true holes on our team.

I agree that this is where we disagree.
Imo we have an incomplete team.
And chasing a skill position 'playmaker' is luxury that would still leave us with an incomplete team.

Because I see no true holes I'm not really looking at what specific position needs to be filled, but rather what elements our team is missing. I think we need a disruptive player in the secondary, a disruptive player on the D line, a dominant OL on the right side, and an explosive offensive weapon not named RGIII.

I believe an offense unit develops over time.
The offense we see now imo will not be as good as the offense we see by mid-season, next year etc.

The coaches are still perfecting the gameplan, the players are still finding their place in the offense.
I think our skill position weapons of Griffin, Morris, Helu, Royster, Garcon, Fred Davis, Hankerson, Morgan, Robinson, Moss are more then enough weapons to rival any of the top offenses.
And together with the right gameplan and execution explosive options may emerge.

However; I agree that our defense requires a difference maker somewhere.
I'm not sure the RT needs to be dominant but I agree that it needs to be addressed in earnest.

DG doesn't think addressing the offensive skill positions is a major need because we have been productive. I think that too much of it is relying on RGIII's ability and because of that, defenses are sending the house at him.

I don't think defenses respond to Griffin and differently then they would any other QB. When a team have a franchise caliber QB defenses are gonna try to stop them.

I think a versatile playmaker that can move all over formations keeps a defense off balance and honest so that they can't just focus on pounding RGIII. It's hard to get that type of player outside of the first couple of rounds so IMO, we need to grab that guy early. Someone like Denard is the only skill position I'd target because a true RB, WR, or TE would clog up the pipeline, but a slash type player takes a couple of reps at multiple positions and still allows the prospects in the pipeline to develop. That type of player makes everyone's job easier and completely opens up the offense.

You seem certain that Robinson is sure to be an instant playmaker, I'm worried about whether he can even be a contributor.
Before he becomes a 'playmaker' he's gonna need a position and he's gonna cost a draft pick.
That means another area will not be addressed via the draft and another player is gonna be out of a position; its zero sum.
We don't know whether Hankerson or Robinson or Helu or any of the young skill position players will develop into a dynamic playmaker any more then Denard Robinson or any other 2nd round skill position playermaker would.

[ConnSKINS26]

You're still assuming a lot that Denard will be able to transfer into an rb/wr role. When was the last time a former qb succeeded at that? I can think of MAJOR failures like Matt Jones and Pat White. I think it's easier said than done. He'll be borderline useless as a wr if he can't catch and run routes and even with his natural running ability I think he'd be hard pressed to run in the nfl like a traditional rb would. Personally, a player like that is just a small wrinkle in a successful offense. We need the workhorses first. The best offenses aren't built off scatbacks being major contributors.

On that note, clearly the greatest scatback prospect in college right now is De'Anthony Thomas. If he stays his senior season we may have a shot at him, OR he may fall due to his weight, but that kid is just unbelievable. He might be more of a dream to get than Denard, but I think he is a far safer prospect. And by that time hopefully we would have enough of an offense built up that he wouldn't be expected to be a major contributor.

Matt Jones was a coke head with great straight line speed and height, but very little agility or ability in open space. Pat White literally never attempted the move to WR, he refused to. He retired from the NFL to pursue baseball, rather than attempting a switch on a team with weak WR's, and then retired from baseball when he wasn't good enough at that. He's now...yup, you guessed it, playing QB in the UFL.

It IS a risk, and you have to trust your projection of him to WR and see something out of him in the Senior Bowl to feel good about it....But the comparisons to Jones and White are not accurate ones.

[NLC1054]

I just have to wonder what role people think Denard Robinson would play in this offense, this scheme we're trying to build by marrying Mike's vertical west coast offense and Baylor's run and shoot offense. (I think Mike called it the East Coast Offense but that hasn't caught on yet.)

People get caught up in the "He's a playmaker" thing. Okay, he's a playmaker; how do we use him? How does he help us get better as a football team? People are talking about spending a second or third round pick on a guy when we have no clue what his potentially skillset going forward is going to be.

I think there's better playmakers to be had that have legitimate production, like a Tavon Austin, rather than banking on a supposed skillset when we have no idea how he'll translate.

[DogofWar1]

If Robinson can truly be a hybrid HB/WR player who can also toss it in a pinch he would be perfect to draft. Unfortunately, that's a high wall for him to climb over. Not many players really fit that role too well, and I'd want to be certain he could be that guy before we draft him. Using a 2nd or 3rd in 2013 or 2014 on a player like that is a little tough to swallow too, since we're still hurting at S, CB, and RT. And there's some question marks too. Does Keenan Robinson develop into London's successor? What if (heaven forbid) Orakpo is not long for this league due to his injuries? DE needs more depth too, Golston was a huge liability in the run game last week. The interior of the line is far from set too, especially once injuries we usually have are taken into account.

[Dukes and Skins]

I just have to wonder what role people think Denard Robinson would play in this offense, this scheme we're trying to build by marrying Mike's vertical west coast offense and Baylor's run and shoot offense. (I think Mike called it the East Coast Offense but that hasn't caught on yet.)

People get caught up in the "He's a playmaker" thing. Okay, he's a playmaker; how do we use him? How does he help us get better as a football team? People are talking about spending a second or third round pick on a guy when we have no clue what his potentially skillset going forward is going to be.

I think there's better playmakers to be had that have legitimate production, like a Tavon Austin, rather than banking on a supposed skillset when we have no idea how he'll translate.

Or we also have in house guys who are ready to move to the top 4 WR group. Guys I look at in the draft who are a help at WR are guys like Terrance Williams who has played with RG3, Aaron Dobson from Marshall(my sleeper guy) Tavon like you mentioned NLC.

Personally the draft I'd kill to walk away with after rounds 2 and 3 is this

Round 2. Khaled Holmes
Round 3. Duke Williams

Why Holmes? Well I know we usually dont draft high at the interior OL, but with the LeRibeus pick last year things seem to be changing a little. I do rate RT an issue but I also feel that Montgomery is best as a backup. Holmes is a very good C, but not a GREAT one like some seem to claim he is. Adding him is huge because he is great at getting to the second level and finding his opponent. Duke Williams is a very good fit for us in the secondary. Now I write this assuming we add Aqib in FA as well