2013 Comprehensive NFL Draft Database

[wildbill1952]

Please note the number of offensive lienemen drafted 3rd round or later by the Skins that made it to the field this year. That would be zero.

Please note the number of OL not named Trent Williams drafted by the Skins that are starters anywhere in the league. Note that number is also zero.

Speculate on the odds of the Skins using their second round pick on an offenisve lineman. Also zero.

Multiply each of those together and you come up with the odds of having a good offensive line next year.

[stevemcqueen1]

U lost me on the Kerrigan thing. JJ would be under utilized here too. You first say Haz don't know how to call n scheme to our player's strength then rag on a player ballin not actually doing what he does best. Watt is ballin because he is a great player getting put n asked to do what he does best. Simple as that. Kerrigan is not a hustle player but a very skilled player with a motor. I highly doubt Watt is as productive if he's asked to 2 gap. Quinn is not asked to drop back into coverage either. All he is asked is set the edge and get at the QB. Kerrigan is asked to do more. Also going in the draft last year we didn't have a 2nd. We did after the trade. Where we haven't seen the good of the trade is Jenkins. But he's coming off an ACL injury and still is young. We have to give it time n another coach that showcase all of our players talent.

Watt's a stud. Haslett not being able to figure out how to use a pass rushing defensive lineman is a big problem with him as a coach. You're arguing my point for me.

We had a second round pick that draft and that's the pick we spent on Jarvis Jenkins. We used the second we gained from trading down with Jacksonville to trade down with Indy, who spent the pick on Ben Ijalana. We got the 53rd pick and a fifth rounder from that trade down. We then traded that 53rd pick to Chicago (who spent it on Stephen Paea) for the 62nd pick and Chicago's fourth rounder. We then traded 62 to Miami (spent on Daniel Thomas) for their third, fifth, and seventh round picks. Then we drafted Leonard Hankerson with that third rounder. The fifth, fourth, other fifth, and seventh rounder to makes some moves with Houston.

The final haul from all of the trade downs was:

- Leonard Hankerson
- Aldrick Robinson
- Roy Helu
- DeJon Gomes
- Maurice Hurt

It's a lot of volume no doubt. But all of those guys are marginal players. Hurt and Robinson are bottom of the roster players. Helu has been a big disappointment and could be off the team next year. Gomes is meh, depth in a bad safety group. Hankerson has shown flashes of promise but you could easily replace him with a ton of mediocre veteran receivers... such as Josh Morgan. All in all, it's a bunch of depth and roster filler and none of them are worth giving up a chance to draft a player like Watt.

This is an illustration of why I don't always like trading down. When you've got a chance at someone special, just take it. Roster turnover is such that you figure you're only keeping two or three players in a class anyway. Go get the special guy when you can, you won't regret it later.

Actually Rex is the perfect match with the players. He instill some of that nastiness in these players. Players we got don't intimidate no one. And that's the problem with them. Its not a smash mouth defense. Which we should be in the NFC E

Rex is a great coach but I'm telling you, he doesn't fit in with the organization. Could you ever see him working well with Mike Shanahan and our guys? I can't. Shanahan runs a tight ship and the players reflect his personality.

---------- Post added October-8th-2012 at 08:53 AM ----------

Steve is suggesting we passed on JJ *because* we had Haslett installing a conservative, vanilla, 2-gap 3-4 defense.

The irony is that we were expecting an aggressive, zone-blitzing 3-4. But instead, we hired the 3-4 version of Greg Blache.

I remember some interesting blitzes from last season but I haven't seen too much in the way of creativity this season. What happened?

The reason we don't stunt much like Pittsburgh did is because our DLs aren't fast enough IMO and our inside linebackers aren't prototypical blitzers. Our guys are power players, every one of them is like 315 plus. London and Riley are coverage guys and run defenders that flow to the ball. Playing downhill and stunting isn't their forte.

Too often, I think we fall into the trap of just rushing our outside guys and relying on them to get pressure from the edges without scheming up diverse pressure. We'll blitz a DB or an ILB every now and then, but that's not really a secondary form of pressure. It's a change of pace play call used sparingly to take an offense by surprise.

Another irony is that I really don't think it takes much creativity to use a great pass rushing defensive lineman to generate pressure. Just send him most plays and always on passing downs. Why two gap with both ends? London would be just as effective in a one gap scheme IMO.

[stevemcqueen1]

Hindsight is tricky, tricky thing.

Some of it's not hindsight. I was against Haslett and the two gap scheme from day one. Hell, I wasn't crazy about the Shanahan hire from day one but he's grown on me some. Definitely didn't think much of Allen's record in TB but I'm kind of meh. Best to keep those two in power for a while until RGIII gets his feet under him.

I've also been calling for us to draft every disruptive defensive linemen that's come out the past couple years. Guys like Watt and Quinn and Aldon Smith didn't surprise me. I was very high on them that year (and I took some crap for how highly I had each ranked before the draft).

But whatever, Kerrigan is good. That decision to trade down certainly isn't what's killing us because Kerrigan will soon be one of our best players.

Hindsight or no, the problem is our FO keeps ****ing up. They've made a lot of mistakes in three short offseasons with the personnel. Mistakes with the assistant coaches, mistakes with the draft and trades, mistakes at QB, mistakes with the OL, mistakes with the defensive front, mistakes with the secondary, and mistakes at kicker.

If we want to become a first rate team and a true contender, the FO can't be making so many mistakes each year. They've got to string a few offseasons together where they get almost everything right. That's what it takes to become a contender. It's hard to do, I know. That's why only a few do it and why there are only ever about 5 teams seriously in it each year. But we've got to get there.

[darrelgreenie]

I agree with a lot of your post.

Going with Riley instead of finding a blitzer and thumper to compliment London means we can't generate interior pressure like the Steelers can with Timmons.

But, I think you're underrating Riley here, sure he's not as fast a Timmons but I think its more scheme then ability that precludes Riley+Fletch from providing interior pressure from blitzing.

Going with gap controllers like Jarvis Jones, Bowen, Carriker, and Cofield
instead of adding a disruptive player like Stephen Paea means we can't generate
interior pressure from the line with base personnel like the Texans, Ravens, and
49ers can.

I agree with this for the most part but I think Cofield is more then a gap controller but is being miscast as a NT as opposed to 5-tech.
Cofield was a disruptive 3-tech DT with the Gints and imo his most natural and beneficial role here would be at DE but Cofield is not a malcontent and accepted his role without objection.

We should be looking for a new DC and a better 3-4 scheme in the offseason IMO. And we should make it a priority to find some sort of consistent interior rush.

I don't like the make-up nor decisions (not keeping Lou Spanos, K.O.) of our DC staff.
I like Raheem Morris but it seemed counter intuitive to add another 43 coach to a 34 staff short on 34 familiar coaches (to include the DC).

I would like a clean slate on defense.
Find an up and coming 34 position coach from a successful 34 scheme and give them a buzz during the offseason.

---------- Post added October-8th-2012 at 09:54 AM ----------

I remember some interesting blitzes from last season but I haven't seen too much in the way of creativity this season. What happened?

I speculate that Lou Spanos was engine behind our better defensive concepts.

---------- Post added October-8th-2012 at 09:57 AM ----------

I remember some interesting blitzes from last season but I haven't seen too much in the way of creativity this season. What happened?

I speculate that Lou Spanos was engine behind our better defensive concepts.

[stevemcqueen1]

I agree with a lot of your post.
But, I think you're underrating Riley here, sure he's not as fast a Timmons but I think its more scheme then ability that precludes Riley+Fletch from providing interior pressure from blitzing.

That's probably fair. Riley is versatile and has shown well. But he's not really the prototype blitzer I envision. I was thinking something more along the lines of an Akeem Ayers or Ronnell Lewis or Donta Hightower. Big bodied thumper who can really attack downhill.

I agree with this for the most part but I think Cofield is more then a gap controller but is being miscast as a NT as opposed to 5-tech.
Cofield was a disruptive 3-tech DT with the Gints and imo his most natural and beneficial role here would be at DE but Cofield is not a malcontent and accepted his role without objection.

I think you're right about Cofield, particularly with the Giants. But he's changed his body now. He's really big, I'd speculate at least 20 pounds heavier than he used to be in New York. He might be too big to play DE now.

I don't like the make-up nor decisions (not keeping Lou Spanos, K.O.) of our DC staff.
I like Raheem Morris but it seemed counter intuitive to add another 43 coach to a 34 staff short on 34 familiar coaches (to include the DC).

I'm with you. I don't think Raheem is the answer either. He's a good coach but his expertise is in the wrong scheme. I don't want to make sweeping changes to our system again, right in the middle of developing RGIII. There has to be somebody out there who is a talented coach, and also the right fit.

I would like a clean slate on defense.
Find an up and coming 34 position coach from a successful 34 scheme and give them a buzz during the offseason.

That'd be my plan. Just don't ask me for specifics. I don't know many of the names of assistants around the league.

Step two would be finding a pass rushing DL to get a stable going. If you got one really good one to push everyone down, Cofield and Bowen would be potent second and third options.

I speculate that Lou Spanos was engine behind our better defensive concepts.

Hadn't thought of that. I don't begrudge him leaving, but it has hurt to lose him.

[GWinSkins83]

Watt's a stud. Haslett not being able to figure out how to use a pass rushing defensive lineman is a big problem with him as a coach. You're arguing my point for me.

We had a second round pick that draft and that's the pick we spent on Jarvis Jenkins. We used the second we gained from trading down with Jacksonville to trade down with Indy, who spent the pick on Ben Ijalana. We got the 53rd pick and a fifth rounder from that trade down. We then traded that 53rd pick to Chicago (who spent it on Stephen Paea) for the 62nd pick and Chicago's fourth rounder. We then traded 62 to Miami (spent on Daniel Thomas) for their third, fifth, and seventh round picks. Then we drafted Leonard Hankerson with that third rounder. The fifth, fourth, other fifth, and seventh rounder to makes some moves with Houston.

The final haul from all of the trade downs was:

- Leonard Hankerson
- Aldrick Robinson
- Roy Helu
- DeJon Gomes
- Maurice Hurt

It's a lot of volume no doubt. But all of those guys are marginal players. Hurt and Robinson are bottom of the roster players. Helu has been a big disappointment and could be off the team next year. Gomes is meh, depth in a bad safety group. Hankerson has shown flashes of promise but you could easily replace him with a ton of mediocre veteran receivers... such as Josh Morgan. All in all, it's a bunch of depth and roster filler and none of them are worth giving up a chance to draft a player like Watt.

This is an illustration of why I don't always like trading down. When you've got a chance at someone special, just take it. Roster turnover is such that you figure you're only keeping two or three players in a class anyway. Go get the special guy when you can, you won't regret it later.



Rex is a great coach but I'm telling you, he doesn't fit in with the organization. Could you ever see him working well with Mike Shanahan and our guys? I can't. Shanahan runs a tight ship and the players reflect his personality.

---------- Post added October-8th-2012 at 08:53 AM ----------



I remember some interesting blitzes from last season but I haven't seen too much in the way of creativity this season. What happened?

The reason we don't stunt much like Pittsburgh did is because our DLs aren't fast enough IMO and our inside linebackers aren't prototypical blitzers. Our guys are power players, every one of them is like 315 plus. London and Riley are coverage guys and run defenders that flow to the ball. Playing downhill and stunting isn't their forte.

Too often, I think we fall into the trap of just rushing our outside guys and relying on them to get pressure from the edges without scheming up diverse pressure. We'll blitz a DB or an ILB every now and then, but that's not really a secondary form of pressure. It's a change of pace play call used sparingly to take an offense by surprise.

Another irony is that I really don't think it takes much creativity to use a great pass rushing defensive lineman to generate pressure. Just send him most plays and always on passing downs. Why two gap with both ends? London would be just as effective in a one gap scheme IMO.

Look Steve I'm not making your point. I'm saying is 1st you say Haz doesn't scheme to our players' strength but then say we shouldn't have passed on Watt for Kerrigan. Im saying Haz would have held Watt back too. Watt wouldn't have the same impact as he does now here. Just off the simple fact that our scheme doesn't showcase his talent. He's a stud in the system that they run. Our system ask to two gap n maybe Watt can do that at a high level but that's not what he does best.

Now I absolutely think Mike n Rex can work together. Most of Rex tactics now is because of he's an headcoach. Did we see his act while he was a DC? I didn't while he was with the Ravens.

Next I believe we do have a Dline tht can stunt. Bowen, Carricker, Jenkins, and Bowen are good off the snap. They seem to be pretty athletic to me. I just don't think Haz is creative enough or savvy enough to come up with a good concept to make it work.

[stevemcqueen1]

If for some reason Kawann Short (pronounced "Kay-WAHN"... "que-JUAN") were to make it to us in the second round, he's exactly the type of defensive lineman I'm talking about us taking a risk on. Nevermind the inconsistent technique and motor and the issues with scheme fit and translation. The dude is a fantastic athlete who can go out and command a double team or make an offense pay for leaving him one on one. He does a terrific job generating interior pressure, sometimes even making plays against a double. Good feet and coordination and breaks down well for his size, and he can use his hands to slip blocks or he can control space and gobble up blocks along the LoS.

And he finds the ball. He's already got 42 tackles for loss for his career. That's flat out amazing. He plays nose tackle a lot! And he's the one who gets doubled and chipped.

Looks like a first rounder, but if for some reason he dipped...

I liked Jesse Williams from Bama too.

---------- Post added October-8th-2012 at 10:37 AM ----------

Look Steve I'm not making your point. I'm saying is 1st you say Haz doesn't scheme to our players' strength but then say we shouldn't have passed on Watt for Kerrigan. Im saying Haz would have held Watt back too. Watt wouldn't have the same impact as he does now here. Just off the simple fact that our scheme doesn't showcase his talent. He's a stud in the system that they run. Our system ask to two gap n maybe Watt can do that at a high level but that's not what he does best.

What I'm saying is, if Haslett can't figure out how to use a true stud like Watt, who's leading the league in sacks as a DL in a 3-4, then he shouldn't be coach in the first place. His limitations shouldn't be the reason we pass on elite talent.

Now I absolutely think Mike n Rex can work together. Most of Rex tactics now is because of he's an headcoach. Did we see his act while he was a DC? I didn't while he was with the Ravens.

The Ryans have always had big mouths. It's in their blood. Both him and Rob talked trash as the DC and lord knows Buddy did back in his day.

He's a great coach though, and I disagree with what LB said about him earlier, questioning the performance of his defenses in New York. Those teams may not have had OLBs that put up big sack numbers, but they attacked with their DL and swallowed up passing games. They were one of the most feared defenses for two years in a row, and it wasn't just Revis playing well. The whole unit, every position group, was playing at an outstanding level.

Next I believe we do have a Dline tht can stunt. Bowen, Carricker, Jenkins, and Bowen are good off the snap. They seem to be pretty athletic to me. I just don't think Haz is creative enough or savvy enough to come up with a good concept to make it work.

They are decently athletic. But there's no one in that group who really threatens an offense with the kind of explosiveness of a Justin Smith, Ngata, Marcel Dareus, J.J. Watt, or even last year's group like Brockers or Coples. I think you need a lineman like that to push you over the top into the best of the best.

[GWinSkins83]

If for some reason Kawann Short (pronounced "Kay-WAHN"... "que-JUAN") were to make it to us in the second round, he's exactly the type of defensive lineman I'm talking about us taking a risk on. Nevermind the inconsistent technique and motor and the issues with scheme fit and translation. The dude is a fantastic athlete who can go out and command a double team or make an offense pay for leaving him one on one. He does a terrific job generating interior pressure, sometimes even making plays against a double. Good feet and coordination and breaks down well for his size, and he can use his hands to slip blocks or he can control space and gobble up blocks along the LoS.

And he finds the ball. He's already got 42 tackles for loss for his career. That's flat out amazing. He plays nose tackle a lot! And he's the one who gets doubled and chipped.

Looks like a first rounder, but if for some reason he dipped...

I liked Jesse Williams from Bama too.

---------- Post added October-8th-2012 at 10:37 AM ----------

What I'm saying is, if Haslett can't figure out how to use a true stud like Watt, who's leading the league in sacks as a DL in a 3-4, then he shouldn't be coach in the first place. His limitations shouldn't be the reason we pass on elite talent.

The Ryans have always had big mouths. It's in their blood. Both him and Rob talked trash as the DC and lord knows Buddy did back in his day.

He's a great coach though, and I disagree with what LB said about him earlier, questioning the performance of his defenses in New York. Those teams may not have had OLBs that put up big sack numbers, but they attacked with their DL and swallowed up passing games. They were one of the most feared defenses for two years in a row, and it wasn't just Revis playing well. The whole unit, every position group, was playing at an outstanding level.



They are decently athletic. But there's no one in that group who really threatens an offense with the kind of explosiveness of a Justin Smith, Ngata, Marcel Dareus, J.J. Watt, or even last year's group like Brockers or Coples. I think you need a lineman like that to push you over the top into the best of the best.

Like I said Watt most likely wouldn't have those sack here. Plan and simple as that. He is asked to attack the QB not run stop n cover 2 gaps. He's Elite ability is showcased in Houston system. Kerrigan is asked to do more and less of what he does best. Raheem is a loud mouth too. It doesn't seem to get in Mike's way.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I think the two of you are talking past each other while saying the same thing.

GWin is arguing that Haslett would not accomodate his scheme for a stud talent like Watt.
Steve is arguing that if he COULDN'T do this he should be fired/never hired in the first place.

Anyway, though Cofield has gained weight to be a 2 gap NT, could he be a 1 gap NT, similar to Jamal Williams or Jay Ratliff? But then, as Steve said, we don't need to make all the down linemen 1 gap - just the stud penetrating one.

Speaking of potentially disruptive linemen, I gotta see what Margus Hunt is doing...I can't find any videos or tape on him at all, at least none that's recent. He's not having the kind of consistent impact his ridiculous measurables would suggest but there are days he looks absolutely dominant, such as against Pitt. I think with a 4th or 5th he could be the ultimate late-bloomer, given his lack of football experience - he just started playing it at SMU.

Anyone else know anything?

[NLC1054]

J.J Watt is a perfect fit for the Wade Phillips 3-4; a one gap system where he is not a guy who's supposed to absorb blocks but instead get up field and penetrate. If Watt were here, he would be asked to two gap and not try to penetrate as much, which would remove some of his pass rushing ability.


The same thing goes for Brockers and Paea and some of the more "disruptive" guys who tend to thrive in those one gap systems right away. And that's got more to do with the scheme we imploy and it's lack of creativity than anything. The more physical specimens in our defense would get lost and since Cofield is the type of nose tackle you'd typically have in the kind of system we run (i.e that Casey Hampton is space eater that commands double teams just based on power alone), those ends would get doubled instead, which would nullify their effectiveness.

Watching our defense is like watching a defense in preseason. It's to the point where I feel like if we dropped a d-linemen into coverage and rushed the safety and the linebacker the offensive line would be so thoroughly shocked by a new play coming at them that they wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

As for the linebackers, I think Perry would actually be a better MIC linebacker, and Keenan would be the better ILB besides him. With London here, that might be some time off unless Fletcher decides to retire.

I think we have the d-line and the linebackers to do some creative things. We just don't. LL said it on the podcast that we're playing the Rosetta Stone version of the 3-4. No one we have on staff really knows how to run it. Losing Lou (who actually came from Pittsburgh) was a big blow. We've got Haslett who didn't want to run a 3-4 in the first place, Slowik who just sucks, and Raheem who's trying to learn. So we run a lot of basic stuff.

I think the talent we've drafted and signed is fine. I think once JJ feels he can trust that ACL again he'll be better off. But right now (other than terrible safety play) our lack of creativity is killing us. Stuff with ran last year when Lou around is stuff I haven't seen a lot of.

[GWinSkins83]

I think the two of you are talking past each other while saying the same thing.

GWin is arguing that Haslett would not accomodate his scheme for a stud talent like Watt.
Steve is arguing that if he COULDN'T do this he should be fired/never hired in the first place.
"
Anyway, though Cofield has gained weight to be a 2 gap NT, could he be a 1 gap NT, similar to Jamal Williams or Jay Ratliff? But then, as Steve said, we don't need to make all the down linemen 1 gap - just the stud penetrating one.

Speaking of potentially disruptive linemen, I gotta see what Margus Hunt is doing...I can't find any videos or tape on him at all, at least none that's recent. He's not having the kind of consistent impact his ridiculous measurables would suggest but there are days he looks absolutely dominant, such as against Pitt. I think with a 4th or 5th he could be the ultimate late-bloomer, given his lack of football experience - he just started playing it at SMU.

Anyone else know anything?

William Gholston is someone like a Couples body frame and athletic ability. I actually think he should be our target.

[Dukes and Skins]

William Gholston is someone like a Couples body frame and athletic ability. I actually think he should be our target.

I assume you're talking with our 2nd rounder?

[GWinSkins83]

I assume you're talking with our 2nd rounder?

Yep.

[Dukes and Skins]

Yep.

Assuming we can fill some of the secondary needs in FA I would have no problem with a Gholston, Short, even a LB like Skov

[GWinSkins83]

Assuming we can fill some of the secondary needs in FA I would have no problem with a Gholston, Short, even a LB like Skov

That's my thoughts right now. Get our hands on a Safety and CB and go for DLine in the draft and hope Skov drops to the 3rd. Then hope Margus Hunt drops to the 4th. But I really want us to get some more weapons for RG3 n a RT. So its catch 22.