2013 Comprehensive NFL Draft Database

[GWinSkins83]

My thoughts on Hank below.

I can. I criticized the move at the time. It was a bad bet and a clear win now move when, even if we had gotten an old franchise QB, the roster wasn't ready to compete in the slightest. No trading first or second round picks for players over 30. That needs to be a rule with absolutely no exceptions. The risk is never worth it.



This is where I think you, and the fan base in general, vastly overestimate our talent.

I think Hank, Helu, Gomes, Jenkins, Royster, Kerrigan, Hurt, etc. even RGIII, have all thus far proven to be exactly who we thought they were in college.

In the case of RGIII and Kerrigan, that's a good thing. RGIII was the best player in CFB last season and Kerrigan was an overachieving turnover & sack machine, but we knew all along he lacked the sort of speed and agility of an elite edge rusher. We saw it in college.

I think our fan base has often hoped many of our draft picks would be "gems" developing qualities they abjectly lacked at the college level. They base their optimism on training camp snapshots with zero perspective and speculation sourced from the coaches' pressers who have an agenda/half of the statements they make to the media are utter horse****. So far as we've seen, in 9/10 cases, we've gotten exactly who we drafted. Consider what these guys were in college:

Gomes - nickel/situational swing DB who wasn't good enough to start for Nebraska but was a nifty reserve. Sound familiar?
Hank - talented, big framed, productive receiver but with truly terrible hands.
Jenkins - good pure run stuffer with next to no value against the pass.
Hurt - unimpressive but useful enough reserve linemen who is just good enough to make himself hard to cut.
White - marginal pass rusher who played with marginal contribution in the shadows of superior talent.
Royster - unimpressive yet productive back. Good at several things, great at none.
Helu - talented big play back yet made of glass.
A Robinson - a one dimensional small school receiver whose only attribute is speed.
K Robinson - just a guy who was good enough to steadily do his job in Texas' defense, surrounded by much bigger talent, instinctual but unspectacular and wholly average
Riley - good, not great player on a great defense who was maybe an average to slightly above average starting talent with the ability to flash every now and then.
Paul - great athlete, great body, no actual well developed positional skills.

We're getting exactly what we pay for. The fan base and the staff need to be honest with themselves about our personnel. These guys are who they have always been in--we are not regularly stumbling upon late blooming diamonds in the rough set to grow exponentially when they reach the NFL. We are not the cleverest guys in the room. The only time we've gotten those gems were Shanny's pet positions of HB and TE and LT and QB.

We pass on true athletic upside at almost all of our picks, thus we should not be surprised when the guys we pick are exactly who we saw in college. The two times we did pick elite athleticism, RGIII and Trent, we got studs. And in Trent's case, he is outperforming his college level somewhat.

Long story short, Jenkins will never be a disruptive force like people hoped, Kerrigan will never be among the very best pass rushers of the league, and Hank will never have good hands--maybe not even decent hands. Those are things those guys have never been/had. They never will. Accept it folks. And as far as Hank goes, to me a WR that can't catch the ball is as useful as a safety or a linebacker that can't tackle. It's a fundamental weakness ruining his utility.



Brown is cooked man. He hasn't been healthy in almost five years. His career is over. He'll be a cap casualty next season.



Keenan is just a guy. He was the fourth or fifth best player on his defense in college, a defense that, while good, was no Alabama or LSU. He was just a guy in college and that's what he'll be in the NFL. We will not be able to truly replace Fletch with any of the guys we have now. Best we can realistically hope for and expect is competent play.

Steve you got a crystal ball over there? Cause you seem to know what's going to happen before it even does. You might as well play the lotto too.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

The thing is, so far things have played out exactly as anyone who looked at their college careers could predict. All these guys were productive in college, so they're good enough to stay on rosters. However, our draft picks have been pretty much what everyone thought they were. Guys who were good enough to stay on the roster and provide depth to a depleted roster- but not quality starters outside the top 2 rounds. I had a lot of hope that we'd able to squeeze a lot more production out of them than they showed in college, but so far, they've been very much what you'd project from their college careers. Just guys. Even Kerrigan is a major overachiever for what his athletic talent says he can do, and is reliant on the production of the opposite-side OLB.

[GWinSkins83]

The thing is, so far things have played out exactly as anyone who looked at their college careers could predict. All these guys were productive in college, so they're good enough to stay on rosters. However, our draft picks have been pretty much what everyone thought they were. Guys who were good enough to stay on the roster and provide depth to a depleted roster- but not quality starters outside the top 2 rounds. I had a lot of hope that we'd able to squeeze a lot more production out of them than they showed in college, but so far, they've been very much what you'd project from their college careers. Just guys. Even Kerrigan is a major overachiever for what his athletic talent says he can do, and is reliant on the production of the opposite-side OLB.

Man Kerrigan has made plays not alot of olbs could make. If our D Coach had more creativity and played to our player's strength than we probably could some great plays. I see alot of these so called Elite players getting free lanes to the QB. Our coach doesn't make the game easier for his players. Till I see more creativity I'm going to always give our players the benefit of the doubt.

[darrelgreenie]

Mwha, don´t know about that point. If you would have asked people about ´Hawks draft they would say that Snyder and Caroll where totally reaching...but they didn´t. They just rankend a lot of athletes different then some other people and took a guy they really liked. I assume we did the same. If you attack the picks and the ´value´ of it, then you qeustion the scouting systeme and the persone who makes the draft board. Do you question that?

I do... I think that our scouting systeme is not producing and that starts with the HC. He doesn't know what he wants and hasn't shown that he can chance his O or D to max peoples talent. If I look at a team like Pats, I really have the feeling they know what they are looking for in a player...and if they find someone who doesn't exactly fit that but does have a exeptional skill. They find ways to max that talent and use it to there advantage. Think the Seahawks show that same abiltie. Find talented players and get them on the field and dominate.

Great example: Aldon Smith. One dimentional player (that's what they said), can only rush the passer. So what do the 49ers do, let him rush, rush and rush more. Max his talent. Don't try to let him play a role he isn't confortable with, just let him do what comes natural to him

I was critical of the Bruce Allen as the GM because when's he's paired with Mike Shanahan he's not the actual GM, Mike is the GM.

And I've always felt that Mike's only strength as a GM is his ability to coach this scheme.

I think its impossible to know or to guess where teams actually rank players. Teams really attempt to hold that information very close to the breast. And any bit of information a team puts out there through the media is somewhere between an outright lie to a information seeking salvo. This imo is where the draftnik community gets it wrong.
We often base our ranking from the media draftnik community's opinions. But those opinions are just a guesstimate of an aggregate NFL draft board.

How can we determine a reach when we don't know that teams draft board nor do we have access to an actual NFL leaguewide draft board.

Bruce Irvin may have been considered a reach by some but like Bill Parcell's said 'better to draft the player you want 1 round early then be 1 pick to late.'

[soljaofjesus]

I would love to have a draft that gets us:

2) Offensive Tackle from Virginia - Oday Abuishi
3) Saftey from Florida - Matt Elam
4) ILB from Penn State - Michael Mauti
5) WR from Texas A&M - Ryan Swope
5) Marcus Lattimore ?
6) Denard Robinson (take over banks role in KR and in the option
7) BPA
7) BPA

[NLC1054]

1.) Hank doesn't have bad hands. If you went back and charted every pass that Hankerson has dropped (and it's worth mentioning that he has not dropped nearly as many passes as people like to pretend he has), it's the same thing; turn up field before he catches the pass. Take his eye off the ball, look upfield, drop. It's got nothing to do with his hands. It's the same mistake that just about every young receiver makes. Hell, it's a mistake I see guys like Mike Wallace and Victor Cruz make. It's the same mistake that stalled Hank's growth his first two years at Maimi, that he turned around and fixed his last two years at Miami.

If we're going to talk about evaluating talent, then we have to be honest about what the talent's problems are. This is not meant to excuse Hank, because it's a problem he has to fix if he ever wants to reach the next level. But let's be honest.

2.) Just as you could excuse Redskin fans of over-valuing the players they have, it's just as easy to say that whenever the team hits a rough patch, people have a tendancy to go into meltdown mode and thing our whole roster is garbage and question every move we've made, fairly and unfairly. And then we tend to get jealous at teams who are much better than us having players dominating while we're till trying to develop guys and no one has really exploded. Yet.

We all sit here and ask "what would've happened if we had stayed at number 10 and drafted J.J Watt?". Then congrats, we'd probably have a disruptive player on the interior of the line, with no outside linebacker pressure from the other side.

Sticking at 10 and not trading down to 16 means we don't have depth. It means we have a lot less leverage to move around and get anymore picks. It means we're back to having a 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th and 7th round pick to try to improve our football team with, which means less players to develop, and more digging into the well to pick up undrafted free agents and the same kind of veterans that everyone was hoping we'd avoid. You think this team looks bad now? You think this teams has less talent now? Imagine this team much older, with even less cap space, and even less depth, imagine being unable to jettison some of the dead weight we had still on the franchise 2010, and then come talk to me about how we should've taken J.J Watt in the first round.

And talk about moving up to get Aldon Smith should be met with the question "how exactly were we supposed to get him with no draft picks?". We were supposed to trade all our picks up to get him? Oh, maybe we were supposed to give up two first round picks to get him, or have even worse depth than we would've. And we also wouldn't have one of the best quarterback prospects to come into the league in a long time.

The fact of the matter is, we completely fleeced Jacksonville. It's amazing how much Blaine Gabbert has improved as a quarterback in year two, and he's still not any good. We took their lunch money, and they we stretched that dollar, and we helped to rebuild our depth.

And you can argue all day and night about how bad the trades for Brown and McNabb were, and how they screwed us, because they did. But the front office to the most of that bad situation, and then they, somehow, got 11 players out of it, and they were 11 guys we needed.

3.) And that's not even talking about the fact that for most of these guys, it's the first time playing an entire year. Hank played in all of four games last year before he got hurt, Aldrick was on the practice squad, JJ got hurt in preseason. Hell, even though Niles played a bunch of teams, but the only times he was on offense was to block for run plays, and that was before he had to learn a completely different position. Helu got hurt.

As for Kerrigan, he has regressed, and Perry has regressed, but that does not mean they're not talented, that does not mean that because they've hit a rough patch being coached by a guy who had only ever coached defensive backs before (and badly, might I add) they are lost causes.

All this buyer's remorse about what we should've done and how none of our guys are actually any good and "if we had only drafted this guy instead" is a lot more short-sighted and ignorant of the situation we've been in, particularly these last two years, but even dating back to 2010, than Redskins fans overvaluing talent.

[Dukes and Skins]

NLC, Thank you.

That is all

[Rabsuz]

I feel like fixing this defense is going to be impossible, and it doesn't help we have no free agency money.

Our pass rush is bad, our linebackers are mostly placeholders as Fletcher is getting exposed with age, our cornerbacks are bad, and our safeties are bad. I feel like no matter who we draft, nothing will happen. We draft a good cornerback, the lack of pressure and safeties gets exposed. We draft a good safety, the pressure and cornerbacks get exposed. We draft a pass rusher, and it won't matter because the secondary will leave guys open all day.

It all feels just so hopeless.

[NLC1054]

Justin Houston? Andy Dalton? Kyle Rudolph? Torrey Smith? Rob Gronkowski? Pat Angerer? Those are some pretty good players just in the 2010/2011 drafts in the 2nd round.

I think Shanahan has been looking for "safe starter upside" rather than "stud difference makers" in the last 2 years. But we need more difference-makers now.

Complaining about who we should've taken with a second round pick we didn't have in 2010 is silly. It's sunk cost.

Andy Dalton is currently in the middle of a sophomore slump.
Kyle Rudolph has had next to no production after starting the season off decently.

And Torrey Smith struggled his whole rookie year with his hands and his route running. The more playing time he got, though, the better he became, and he's better now, but he's still growing and learning.

His problems coming out of college was his route running and inconsistent hands. Is he the same guy he was in college? Doesn't seem like it. Amazing what a little patience and experience will do.

---------- Post added November-10th-2012 at 04:24 PM ----------

I feel like fixing this defense is going to be impossible, and it doesn't help we have no free agency money.

Our pass rush is bad, our linebackers are mostly placeholders as Fletcher is getting exposed with age, our cornerbacks are bad, and our safeties are bad. I feel like no matter who we draft, nothing will happen. We draft a good cornerback, the lack of pressure and safeties gets exposed. We draft a good safety, the pressure and cornerbacks get exposed. We draft a pass rusher, and it won't matter because the secondary will leave guys open all day.

It all feels just so hopeless.

Getting a better coach who knows what he's doing would help tremendously.

[Kostaskins]

Bama vs Texas a & m is on wow! A & M is making bama look like Swiss cheese!

[Dukes and Skins]

I feel like fixing this defense is going to be impossible, and it doesn't help we have no free agency money.

Our pass rush is bad, our linebackers are mostly placeholders as Fletcher is getting exposed with age, our cornerbacks are bad, and our safeties are bad. I feel like no matter who we draft, nothing will happen. We draft a good cornerback, the lack of pressure and safeties gets exposed. We draft a good safety, the pressure and cornerbacks get exposed. We draft a pass rusher, and it won't matter because the secondary will leave guys open all day.

It all feels just so hopeless.

The pass rush being bad can be fixed very easily with a DC who can actually be creative with his blitzes. You'll never hear about Pittsburgh having a dominant interior rusher, but they always get consistent pressure because of their scheme and the creativity of it

---------- Post added November-10th-2012 at 04:28 PM ----------

And thats exactly why I've been saying Joeckel is the top OT. He literally is destroying everyone in sight today

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

NLC, I have to disagree. There were ways we could have gotten Watt and built depth had we exploited them.

Let's say we take Watt at 10. With #41 we took Jenkins. What we could have opted to do is to trade down 5-10 spots (to Oakland at #48 or thereabouts), picking up a 3rd rounder. In round 2, we take Justin Houston, filling our pass-rusher from the other side of Rak. In round 3 we can still draft Hankerson, or someone like Chris Comte. We don't have a 4th in this scenario, but Helu might be a writeoff at this point. Sure it's a lot of hindsight involved. But it's very easy to end up with a draft where we don't trade down, take the best player on the board, yet are still able to acquire young depth. And the thing is - that was the great front offices do - they don't play it safe (actually the great FOs don't make mistakes like McNabb and Brown in the first place), they're able to find the studs and maximize the draft in terms of value.

[GWinSkins83]

NLC, I have to disagree. There were ways we could have gotten Watt and built depth had we exploited them.

Let's say we take Watt at 10. With #41 we took Jenkins. What we could have opted to do is to trade down 5-10 spots (to Oakland at #48 or thereabouts), picking up a 3rd rounder. In round 2, we take Justin Houston, filling our pass-rusher from the other side of Rak. In round 3 we can still draft Hankerson, or someone like Chris Comte. We don't have a 4th in this scenario, but Helu might be a writeoff at this point. Sure it's a lot of hindsight involved. But it's very easy to end up with a draft where we don't trade down, take the best player on the board, yet are still able to acquire young depth. And the thing is - that was the great front offices do - they don't play it safe (actually the great FOs don't make mistakes like McNabb and Brown in the first place), they're able to find the studs and maximize the draft in terms of value.

People are so short sighted. Helu written off? Chillout.

[Rabsuz]

NLC, I have to disagree. There were ways we could have gotten Watt and built depth had we exploited them.

Let's say we take Watt at 10. With #41 we took Jenkins. What we could have opted to do is to trade down 5-10 spots (to Oakland at #48 or thereabouts), picking up a 3rd rounder. In round 2, we take Justin Houston, filling our pass-rusher from the other side of Rak. In round 3 we can still draft Hankerson, or someone like Chris Comte. We don't have a 4th in this scenario, but Helu might be a writeoff at this point. Sure it's a lot of hindsight involved. But it's very easy to end up with a draft where we don't trade down, take the best player on the board, yet are still able to acquire young depth. And the thing is - that was the great front offices do - they don't play it safe (actually the great FOs don't make mistakes like McNabb and Brown in the first place), they're able to find the studs and maximize the draft in terms of value.

You will drive yourself crazy with what ifs and how we could have done it in hindsight. I bet every single team wishes they could re do a draft in hindsight. I think we did well in 2011, aside from RG3 and Morris I think 2012 was a bad draft class.

[gorebd82]

You will drive yourself crazy with what ifs and how we could have done it in hindsight. I bet every single team wishes they could re do a draft in hindsight. I think we did well in 2011, aside from RG3 and Morris I think 2012 was a bad draft class.

How can you possibly say the class is bad? We haven't even seen LeRibeus, Gettis, Compton or Bernstine play. Robinson and Crawford have been spot duty reserves. Cousins has only played one half. To call the class bad other than RGIII and Morris is absurd.