***2012-13 NBA THREAD!!! New Season/New Thread - LET'S GO!!!!!***

[nuposse87]

thats because Scott Brooks might actually be a worse coach than Mike Brown.

I was calling for Scott's head in the finals last year. I abhor his rotations. I truly believe he is their biggest Achilles heel. I think he won coach of the year though recently, didn't he? Presti ought to keep options open, if Phil or Sloan want to come back, anything less than a finals appearance is reason enough to can Brooks.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I was calling for Scott's head in the finals last year. I abhor his rotations. I truly believe he is their biggest Achilles heel. I think he won coach of the year though recently, didn't he? Presti ought to keep options open, if Phil or Sloan want to come back, anything less than a finals appearance is reason enough to can Brooks.

I agree with you. There is no reason OKC should have lost last year in 5 with the talent he had at his disposal. His plays on offense are terrible.

Unfortunately, the chance to cut him lose was this summer when his contract was up, but Presti re-upped him. The fact that it took so long makes me believe he thought long and hard about cutting Brooks.


Basketball is the only sport where coaches of top teams are not questioned when they should be.

[stevemcqueen1]

Why didn't Harden sacrifice a few million to stay in OKC? Is that reprehensible as well?

Not really. He deserved that money. He's already sacrificing minutes and numbers for them. Now he has to sacrifice millions of dollars too?

Most players never get a shot at a max deal. When you've got an opportunity for one, you should never feel bad about taking it IMO. There is no such thing as team loyalty to player. Like Bill Simmons said, take Steve Nash. He took hometown discounts to give the team money to sign guys to keep them in contention and they used the savings to let Amare go, lowball Joe Johnson, sell off draft picks year after year, etc. They screwed him over.

OKC was trying to pay Harden less than they paid Ibaka. And I would agree with Harden if he felt that was insulting.

[RonArtest15]

Why didn't Harden sacrifice a few million to stay in OKC? Is that reprehensible as well?

I believe he would have...if the Thunder offered him a contract extension before Ibaka. Absolutely FOOLISH to go about business in the manner the Thunder did. Presti gets a lot of credit for how he runs things in OKC, but he absolutely needs to fry if this team doesn't reach the finals.

I'll put it this way...If they let Ibaka walk and kept Harden, I would say that they would be a lock for the Finals. Letting Harden walk and keeping Ibaka is going to come back and bite them in the ass.

[stevemcqueen1]

I am not penalizing Shaq, per se, but I cant put him on the center Mt. Rushmore ahead of Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, and Hakeem, guys who really did maximize their talents.

Shoot, I think Duncan was the better big man in that era. Thats not because of talent, but because Duncan maxed himself out and played at a great level longer and was rarely injured himself.

Shaq himself said he was never the best during his career on Open Court. He rattled off some no names from HS and then Christian Laettner at college. Then he said Hakeem and Robinson early in his career, and he specifically named Duncan as a better player than him during the latter part of his career.

Shaq did say he tried to be the most dominant though--which is different, and I understand where he's going with that.

Shaq could have been the best big man of his era Wilt style but he didn't have that work ethic and he wanted to have fun with ball. That's kind of the bottom line on him for me. Shaq was an unstoppable force. You couldn't even stop him by doubling him. He wasn't just the best athlete in the NBA. He was smart too and he knew how to play when he was actually on the court. But yeah, his effort kept him from ever truly being a great two way player.

Shaq is a weird guy. Half the time he talks on NBA TV he's incomprehensible. He's an old country man. Prickly and insensitive, you're just not going to get through to him if he doesn't want you to. He doesn't care at all how dominant you think he should be. He is always going to do it his way.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 08:43 AM ----------

I believe he would have...if the Thunder offered him a contract extension before Ibaka. Absolutely FOOLISH to go about business in the manner the Thunder did. Presti gets a lot of credit for how he runs things in OKC, but he absolutely needs to fry if this team doesn't reach the finals.

I'll put it this way...If they let Ibaka walk and kept Harden, I would say that they would be a lock for the Finals. Letting Harden walk and keeping Ibaka is going to come back and bite them in the ass.

It was an untenable gamble. And the reasons for it weren't good. Nobody wants to hear about pinching pennies as an excuse for giving up on a lightning in a bottle dynamic.

The gamble is that Ibaka is going to get a lot better, Martin can fill in the shooting and second line scoring in the short term, Lamb can do it for cheap in the long term.

I don't have faith in those bets.

I think finding that proper third star is a hard thing to orchestrate.

It needs to be a guy who has the mindset to sacrifice his game and numbers (because only two guys can put up Superstar numbers on any team IMO). They need to do dirty work and not get the same glory as the other top two guys. And they need to come in and be clutch with the limited opportunities they do get. They need to be smart and instinctive with when they take over. Russ is cold or pressing and needs to dial it back? Let me have the ball and I'm going to start facilitating and scoring and giving the team that emotion and confidence back.

CWebb is right--Harden was their fourth qtr PG. Losing that is a huge deal offensively.

When you have that third guy, it makes all the difference IMO. Boston had it in Ray Allen with their title team. Miami has it with Bosh. OKC had it with Harden. A three star construction is more valuable than anything in the NBA. It could be the difference between being a great contending team like the Utah Jazz and Sonics of the 90's, or a multiple title team like the Spurs of the 2000's

I really hate this trade. I hate that OKC may have peaked already. I was looking forward to them being the biggest force in the league one day.

[Hersh]

I really hate this trade. I hate that OKC may have peaked already. I was looking forward to them being the biggest force in the league one day.

This is so utterly ridiculous. After one game in which OKC didn't play well at all in one of the toughest places in the NBA to win a road game yet still had a chance to win at the end, turns into OKC may have peaked. Yes, Durant and Westbrook won't get better. Yes, Durant, beginning only his 5th year at age 24 has peaked already. Have a bigger knee-jerk reaction to one game.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

thats because Scott Brooks might actually be a worse coach than Mike Brown.

I only watched about a quarter and a half of the game, but it dawned on me that Brooks might really just love Kevin Martin. He was effusive in his praise of him during his halftime interview. ("I coached him before. He's a winner.") And I think Martin was on the court for every minute I watched. At one point, Reggie Miller even said "Martin has been out here a lot tonight."

I agree that Brooks' rotations have always been off and without Harden to bail him out with the second unit, this might be a major problem this year. You can have questionable rotations if no matter what you do, you have an All-Star on the court. That's not the case this year.

[RonArtest15]

Shaq himself said he was never the best during his career on Open Court. He rattled off some no names from HS and then Christian Laettner at college. Then he said Hakeem and Robinson early in his career, and he specifically named Duncan as a better player than him during the latter part of his career.

Shaq did say he tried to be the most dominant though--which is different, and I understand where he's going with that.

Shaq could have been the best big man of his era Wilt style but he didn't have that work ethic and he wanted to have fun with ball. That's kind of the bottom line on him for me. Shaq was an unstoppable force. You couldn't even stop him by doubling him. He wasn't just the best athlete in the NBA. He was smart too and he knew how to play when he was actually on the court. But yeah, his effort kept him from ever truly being a great two way player.

Shaq is a weird guy. Half the time he talks on NBA TV he's incomprehensible. He's an old country man. Prickly and insensitive, you're just not going to get through to him if he doesn't want you to. He doesn't care at all how dominant you think he should be. He is always going to do it his way.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 08:43 AM ----------



It was an untenable gamble. And the reasons for it weren't good. Nobody wants to hear about pinching pennies as an excuse for giving up on a lightning in a bottle dynamic.

The gamble is that Ibaka is going to get a lot better, Martin can fill in the shooting and second line scoring in the short term, Lamb can do it for cheap in the long term.

I don't have faith in those bets.

I think finding that proper third star is a hard thing to orchestrate.

It needs to be a guy who has the mindset to sacrifice his game and numbers (because only two guys can put up Superstar numbers on any team IMO). They need to do dirty work and not get the same glory as the other top two guys. And they need to come in and be clutch with the limited opportunities they do get. They need to be smart and instinctive with when they take over. Russ is cold or pressing and needs to dial it back? Let me have the ball and I'm going to start facilitating and scoring and giving the team that emotion and confidence back.

CWebb is right--Harden was their fourth qtr PG. Losing that is a huge deal offensively.

When you have that third guy, it makes all the difference IMO. Boston had it in Ray Allen with their title team. Miami has it with Bosh. OKC had it with Harden. A three star construction is more valuable than anything in the NBA. It could be the difference between being a great contending team like the Utah Jazz and Sonics of the 90's, or a multiple title team like the Spurs of the 2000's

I really hate this trade. I hate that OKC may have peaked already. I was looking forward to them being the biggest force in the league one day.

I agree w/ everything you said in regards to the OKC decision to deal Harden. At this point, it had to be done. But, I think that if people took a step back and looked at what led up to the trade, Harden COULD have still been on the Thunder. I'll stand by my assumption that Harden would have been in OKC had the Thunder come to him first w/ the extension offer. Guys as skilled as him don't exactly grow on trees. You also brought up a great point about who was handling the ball in the 4th quarter. That was HUGE.

This is so utterly ridiculous. After one game in which OKC didn't play well at all in one of the toughest places in the NBA to win a road game yet still had a chance to win at the end, turns into OKC may have peaked. Yes, Durant and Westbrook won't get better. Yes, Durant, beginning only his 5th year at age 24 has peaked already. Have a bigger knee-jerk reaction to one game.

People were questioning this trade BEFORE OKC tipped off last night. I'd honestly like to hear how you think this trade makes them any better going forward? It's not a knee-jerk reaction...they got trash in return for one of the best 2-guards in the game right now. Presti, IMO, messed up.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Shaq is a weird guy. Half the time he talks on NBA TV he's incomprehensible. He's an old country man. Prickly and insensitive, you're just not going to get through to him if he doesn't want you to. He doesn't care at all how dominant you think he should be. He is always going to do it his way.[COLOR="Gold"]

I think Shaq considers himself the most successful player in NBA history - and he may be right. He was paid more to play basketball than anyone in history ($300 million). He was more famous than anyone not named Michael Jordan. He won four titles so he can't say he wasn't a big winner. He had more fun than anyone.

We love Jordan, Bird, Magic, etc because they were obsessed with winning. Shaq was not driven that way. He wanted to win because winning helped him do everything else. But I never thought it was his driving force.

If Shaq had been wired like Kevin Garnett, he would have won 12 titles and hospitalized players on a weekly basis. But he wasn't.

[RonArtest15]

If Shaq had any work-ethic, he'd be considered the greatest basketball player of all time. I'm not kidding. His athleticism was off the charts. For as good as he was, he could have been MUCH better. Dude always used the first 60 games of the regular season to get his fat ass into shape. SMH.

I can see why there was friction between him and Kobe. Polar opposites. Not saying Kobe is absolved from fault, but this was about as poor of a duo that you could form in the NBA. And yet they still won 3 titles LOL. Could have had way more....

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

When you have that third guy, it makes all the difference IMO. Boston had it in Ray Allen with their title team. Miami has it with Bosh. OKC had it with Harden. A three star construction is more valuable than anything in the NBA. It could be the difference between being a great contending team like the Utah Jazz and Sonics of the 90's, or a multiple title team like the Spurs of the 2000's

This is an interesting point that I never really thought of.

In the 80s, the cap rules were different in the league was smaller so you could have 3rd and 4th stars. But those stars needed the same mindset.

Boston - Dennis Johnson was once a big-time scorer and Finals MVP. He came to Boston and became a facilitator and defensive stopper. Robert Parish was a great center whose job was to get rebounds and set picks. He could have been a 25 ppg scorer on a mediocre team but knew his role. Even early on, Kevin McHale spent half his career as a Sixth Man.

LA - Worthy spent his entire career in the shadow of two of the 8 or 9 greatest players ever. His job was to fill the wing. Norm Nixon could not handle being the third guy so they shipped him out.

Chicago - Rodman had the perfect mindset for the third wheel as all he wanted to do was rebound and play D. He seemed annoyed when the ball came to him on offense. And the thing is, he was actually a pretty effective offensive player in his early years in Detroit.

[stevemcqueen1]

This is so utterly ridiculous. After one game in which OKC didn't play well at all in one of the toughest places in the NBA to win a road game yet still had a chance to win at the end, turns into OKC may have peaked. Yes, Durant and Westbrook won't get better. Yes, Durant, beginning only his 5th year at age 24 has peaked already. Have a bigger knee-jerk reaction to one game.

It wasn't based on the game. It was based on the fact they traded away an All Star and Olympian for 30 cents on the dollar to save their profits.

[Hersh]

I agree w/ everything you said in regards to the OKC decision to deal Harden. At this point, it had to be done. But, I think that if people took a step back and looked at what led up to the trade, Harden COULD have still been on the Thunder. I'll stand by my assumption that Harden would have been in OKC had the Thunder come to him first w/ the extension offer. Guys as skilled as him don't exactly grow on trees. You also brought up a great point about who was handling the ball in the 4th quarter. That was HUGE.


People were questioning this trade BEFORE OKC tipped off last night. I'd honestly like to hear how you think this trade makes them any better going forward? It's not a knee-jerk reaction...they got trash in return for one of the best 2-guards in the game right now. Presti, IMO, messed up.

I don't know if they will be better going forward this year, but to say that OKC may have peaked already and won't win a championship ever because of this trade is crazy. Harden wasn't going to be in OKC long term regardless.
The argument has now changed that OKC messed up in not signing Harden before Ibaka. Maybe Harden should have stayed and Westbrook should have gone. Who knows. Either way, two top-20 players, including the 2nd best player in the NBA, will find a way to win.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Why didn't Harden sacrifice a few million to stay in OKC? Is that reprehensible as well?

He was willing to sacrifice many many millions to stay in OKC. He was willing to take 4 and 60 from the Thunder when he was worth 5 and 80 on the open market. He was already giving up an extra year of security and $20 million to stay and be the third wheel. The Thunder were trying to squeeze him for another 8 or so.

As others have pointed out, as soon as he signed that deal with OKC, he would become the most valuable trade asset in the league. A superstar 2 guard entering his prime being paid 40 percent of his value. He was going to spend the next 4 years the subject of trade rumors.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 09:10 AM ----------

I don't know if they will be better going forward this year, but to say that OKC may have peaked already and won't win a championship ever because of this trade is crazy. Harden wasn't going to be in OKC long term regardless.
The argument has now changed that OKC messed up in not signing Harden before Ibaka. Maybe Harden should have stayed and Westbrook should have gone. Who knows. Either way, two top-20 players, including the 2nd best player in the NBA, will find a way to win.

They are still going to be good. They had a chance to be special and they blew it. That's the issue we are all having.

They had a chance to compete with Miami for the next five years or so. I feel cheated as an NBA fan that I don't get to watch this.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

If Shaq had any work-ethic, he'd be considered the greatest basketball player of all time. I'm not kidding. His athleticism was off the charts. For as good as he was, he could have been MUCH better. Dude always used the first 60 games of the regular season to get his fat ass into shape. SMH.

I can see why there was friction between him and Kobe. Polar opposites. Not saying Kobe is absolved from fault, but this was about as poor of a duo that you could form in the NBA. And yet they still won 3 titles LOL. Could have had way more....

I believe this too. The only player in NBA history who was more athletic than Shaq was Wilt Chamberlain, and Wilt played in the best era ever for big men. Shaq's dominant period was the start of this dead centers era. He could have won 6 or 7 straight titles and 5 or 6 MVPs if he had the work ethic to be the best because he had no one who was close to his rival except Yao, but Yao didnt have the talent around him to compete.

And I agree completely about Shaq's lack of focus versus Kobe's bball only focus being a big cause of their friction.

Shaq should not regret his career tho, as someone mentioned earlier he made the most money, got his rings, got the acclaim, and is famous. But as a fan, I do have the right to ask "what if?"

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 10:14 AM ----------

They had a chance to compete with Miami for the next five years or so.

they still do.