"The Internet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea: massive, difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it" - I wish I had said this.
Point still stands that Lewis would have beat the snot out of Leon...and I never liked Lewis, but he was a damn good fighter or Holyfield because he ducked Tyson in his prime.
Thanks for the sig LCSF
Norton was 42-7-1 in his career with 2 losses to Ali, 1 loss to Forman, and 1 loss to Holmes... Those are some pretty good fighters.
That's impressive as hell.
As for only fought bums, He fought Frasier twice in his prime and beat him and you said smoking joe was a quality guy? Fought Norton and beat him too. He only lost to Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle and their is some controversy about his water bottle being tampered with in that fight.
He sat out for 10 years after Ali defeated him in the jungle... when he came back he was still a scary dude, going 22-0 in his comeback after an unprecedented 10 year absence before holifield stopped him.
I disagree, I think Foreman was awesome who could have been the greatest boxer in history if not for two things...
- Accepting a questionable venue in the Congo with Don King in charge when he fought Ali.
- Retiring after loosing to Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle, in 1974.
---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 12:52 PM ----------
Last edited by JMS; September-26th-2012 at 11:50 AM.
It wasn't Holyfield's fault they didn't fight in Tyson's prime.
DM, I remember, but at the time Evander was supposed to fight him a year or so earlier.
Thanks for the sig LCSF
As for Tyson and Holyfield, Remember Tyson also fought Holyfield in the Olympics trial.. I think Tyson was only like 14, and an older Holyfield beat him to get into the Olympics.
Tyson was a freakish talent. He was short, compact and had a murderous punch. The knock on him compared to Ali was several bullet items.
- Tyson really didn't have much of a prime. He started his professional career at 21 and was 37-0 when he met Buster Douglas which was the turning point in his career (for the worse). But he was only 26 years. That's when his prime should have started, but he was pretty much done.
- It's very very difficult to call Tyson a boxer. While that is usually a negative, in Tyson's case it's actually a complement. In Tyson's early career nobody could stay in the ring with him. Only one of his first 37 fights went the distance and that's only because his trainer told him not to knock the guy out, they were worried he was winning so quickly he wasn't getting any experience. They were right. Tyson was a freakish athlete, but really had nothing else. I think he won more than 30 of his first 37 fights in the first round.
- When it came time to actually box people because for whatever reason he wasn't able to knock people out 10 seconds into the first round any longer, he frankly just never had the boxing skills to compete with guys like Holyfield who were proficient boxers, but had never enjoyed the early success that Tyson did.
Against Ali, who was perhaps the ultimate ring tactician, I don't see how Tyson would have won. Sure if Tyson would have knocked him out in the first 10 seconds like he did so many bums.. But remember Ali went up against some great punchers too, and never went out like that. No it would have gone into the late rounds, and Ali would have out thought him... Like everybody who went late rounds with Tyson was able to do.
Frusterate him, out think him, out box him..
Tyson's problem was chiefly related to the fact that when Cus D'amato died, Tyson had nobody around him he trusted. So he basically stopped developing as a fighter before he ever arrived at his potential. Then he had Robin's Givens kick the snot out of him, Then he was unprepared and overconfident to face Buster Douglas on Buster's best day of his life, then he went to jail. After that Don King took over and it was all she wrote.
Last edited by JMS; September-26th-2012 at 12:36 PM.
How can anyone say Holyfield was out if his depth as a heavyweight? Those 3 fights with Bowe should be enough to prove otherwise. He beat George Foreman. And George Foreman was still feared at the time. And he beat Tyson when Tyson was still one of the best.
Tyson was a force of nature with unbelievable power. And before his prison stint, he had awesome head movement. But that was pretty much the extent of his skills. Incredible power, balance, and head movement. With the fighters he faced, that was more than enough.
After prison, he lost the head movement and became a pretty easy target. He also became a pretty incredible bleeder by the end because of this. I would say this started happening before prison though. Buster Douglas could do only one thing in the ring - jab. And Tyson made it really really easy for him in Tokyo.
The only Tyson that could beat Ali would be very young Tyson and only if he caught Ali off-guard early on.
But Tyson fought some hellacious punchers and rarely got in trouble. Sonny Liston and George Foreman could easily match Tyson's power and Ali handled them.
The key with Tyson was always surviving the early rounds with him.
---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 01:56 PM ----------
George Foreman in his prime was Mike Tyson if Mike Tyson was a superheavyweight.
Norton was a lot like Lennox Lewis - a big guy who did not really like to mix it up. That's why I think the fighter over the last 20 years who would have given Ali the most trouble is Lewis. Ali liked to frustrate boxers into mistakes. Lewis - rarely - made mistakes. I don't think Lewis was as willing as Ali to suffer in the ring though.
---------- Post added September-26th-2012 at 02:13 PM ----------
People like to think of Foreman as Frankenstein (because that's what Ali called him), but he was pretty athletic.
When We Were Kings, the documentary is absolutely phenomenal. You seen it? I'm assuming yes since you've seen about everything.
And Norman Mailer goes into great detail about Foreman's foot work in it.
Young Foreman's problem was that - like Tyson - he was a bully at heart. If everything was going well for him in the ring, he was capable of murder. Neither he nor Tyson dealt with adversity very well. Foreman's weakness was basically his mental state. There is really only fight in his "first" career where he got himself out of trouble.
Last edited by Lombardi's_kid_brother; September-26th-2012 at 02:29 PM.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)