Does Rob Jackson make Orakpo expendable?

[RandyHolt]

Even with Rak bringing his outside speed rush, we don't get push up the middle. He gets directed wide and choked out. Our pass rush scheme sucks. You can see it again yesterday, our standard blitz, the ILBs coming late, is completely ineffective. No stunts, no creativity. We don't have a mammoth NT, i thought, the key to most strong 3-4s.

It starts with the "benefit"of the 3-4 - the offense not knowing who is coming. At full health, Rak or Kerrigan is likely in coverage. Which no fan wants. Haslet too, so he uses lots of 4-3 fronts. Which has slimmed down speed rushers lined up as standup 4-3 DE's. Are we 3-4 or not? We are stuck in the middle. Thus, our defense is a mess.

The problem is bigger than Rak being injured, Rak vs Kerrigan, or the laughable, Rak vs Jackson.

[KDawg]

I think you are over valuing him. Really, really... all Orakpo did was get run up the field and he was behind the QB fighting with the LT. Sure... he would get to the QB more the Jackson did/does... but it's not like he was sacking guys every play.

Again, you don't need to be getting sacks to help the team. You need to be able to apply pressure. I think you are severely undervaluing him. Which shocks me considering how poor we've been without him on the field.

I think this defense is so bad that some of you guys are guilty of saying imagining things... one of those things is Orakpo making this defense the '85 Bears... which he didn't.

Who said anything about the '85 Bears? You can't come in here and make things up and say they've been said and expect to have your opinion respected. I haven't imagined anything. It's there, in black and white and on film. Watch. Rak opens things up, if for no other reason than a blind side rush that forces the QB to step up or to the outside. That creates sack opportunities for others.

I get the feeling you didn't actually read my post. You reply with "but it's not like he was sacking guys every play" after I specifically noted his value is a key cog to a unit, not as an individual sack artist.

[Tarheel_Skin]

Its pretty obvious Orakpo makes Ryan K better.....

[KDawg]

Even with Rak bringing his outside speed rush, we don't get push up the middle. He gets directed wide and choked out. Our pass rush scheme sucks. You can see it again yesterday, our standard blitz, the ILBs coming late, is completely ineffective. No stunts, no creativity. We don't have a mammoth NT, i thought, the key to most strong 3-4s.

Haslett blows. Agreed.

We don't have a proper nose. Agreed.

The problem is bigger than Rak being injured, Rak vs Kerrigan, or the laughable, Rak vs Jackson.

Without a doubt.

[DC9]

Again, you don't need to be getting sacks to help the team. You need to be able to apply pressure. I think you are severely undervaluing him. Which shocks me considering how poor we've been without him on the field.

I do value him... but I don't over value him. This secondary sucks. Even with Orakpo here... teams were just doing three step drop routes and forcing our secondary to tackle... which they couldn't.

Who said anything about the '85 Bears? You can't come in here and make things up and say they've been said and expect to have your opinion respected. I haven't imagined anything. It's there, in black and white and on film. Watch. Rak opens things up, if for no other reason than a blind side rush that forces the QB to step up or to the outside. That creates sack opportunities for others.

I get the feeling you didn't actually read my post. You reply with "but it's not like he was sacking guys every play" after I specifically noted his value is a key cog to a unit, not as an individual sack artist.

I never said anyone actually said the '85 Bears. But I certainly can come in here and say that it's not like this team would be that much better with Orakpo because of the secondary. Like I said above... look at how the Saints and the Rams were playing against the Redskins... quick passes to force coverage and/or tackling from the secondary.

Would we be better with Orakpo? Absolutely. Would we be that much better with Orakpo? Absolutely not.

[KDawg]

I do value him... but I don't over value him. This secondary sucks. Even with Orakpo here... teams were just doing three step drop routes and forcing our secondary to tackle... which they couldn't.

Part of the issue you're having is you're not aware of my stance on our defense in general. Which makes this whole conversation off topic.

Our secondary is pourous, and especially against Pittsburgh, you couldn't pin the issues on lack of pressure due to how ridiculously quick the ball was leaving Ben's hands. I'm talking about this in a nutshell, from a frontage perspective. I'm not speaking on the defense as a whole.

If I did that, I'd run out of bandwidth. Haslett is a severe issue. Slowik is an issue. Our coverage unit (not necessarily just the secondary) is horrendous.

Would we be better with Orakpo? Absolutely. Would we be that much better with Orakpo? Absolutely not.

This statement confuses me.

A football team is a system. It's like an aquarium. You need the proper pH to maintain it. You can't mix certain species of fish with others. Our pH is off, in large part due to our coordinator. In large part due to injury. We would have a much better pass rush with Orakpo in the game. And that is what we're talking about specifically. We're not necessarily talking coverage units here. Our assessment of our coverage units is in agreement with one another. It stinks. We're talking about one aspect here and one only: the pressure unit.

[planter]

Watching the Skins pass rush after the loss of Orakpo makes this thread look STUPID. We need more inside pass rush in addition to return of Rak. Shanahans insistence on use of 3-4 defense despite existing 4-3 personnel -allegedly over the objections of his new DC - was STUPID.

Dream secondary:Champ Bailey, Carlos Rogers, Ryan Clark, and Laron Landry. All former Skins!

[Sticksboi05]

Our blitz schemes are a joke. Carolina of course, didn't need to bring any extra rushers to get to RGIII. We bring 7 and they are all picked up easily.

[stevemcqueen1]

I still can't believe that there were actually people who didn't appreciate him. Our pass rush, minus Rak has been ANEMIC. Furthermore, people keep saying things like, "Rak hasn't had a ten sack season since his rookie year". Yeah? Well, as an individual that's 100% correct, he hasn't. But for the team? Rak WAS the pass rush. His presence alone helped guys like Bowen, Cofield, Carriker and Kerrigan get to the quarterback.

We're currently on pace for 23 sacks this season. Last year, with Orakpo, we had 40. His value isn't as an individual, it's as a key cog to a unit. When you look at it like that, not only is he a key cog but he's an ELITE player. Perhaps not an elite level sack artist, but an elite level player does things like contribute to a 17 sack differential. Carriker certainly helped with that as well, but even if Rak was responsible for another 10-12 of those sacks that we got last year, that's a WORLD of difference.

And even then, we're not taking into account the pressures and pocket collapses he was responsible for.

Exactly. And I'll add Orakpo has become a really nice all around linebacker. Looks good playing in pursuit and had markedly improved his zone coverages IMO.

I think undervaluing Orakpo comes from a few things. First, fans are outside the process so they tend to focus on a few superficial numbers far too much.

Second, it's the good player syndrome fans get. Once their team gets a good player at a certain position, they start to take a certain level of play for granted and can no longer place that level of play within the greater context of the NFL. They nitpick trifles and magnify flaws, particularly if the team is losing. They think a high level of play is replacement level, and one tends not to realize how distorted their perception is until the team loses that level of play and they get to see what replacement level actually looks like.

---------- Post added November-5th-2012 at 10:26 AM ----------

Even with Rak bringing his outside speed rush, we don't get push up the middle. He gets directed wide and choked out. Our pass rush scheme sucks. You can see it again yesterday, our standard blitz, the ILBs coming late, is completely ineffective. No stunts, no creativity. We don't have a mammoth NT, i thought, the key to most strong 3-4s.

It starts with the "benefit"of the 3-4 - the offense not knowing who is coming. At full health, Rak or Kerrigan is likely in coverage. Which no fan wants. Haslet too, so he uses lots of 4-3 fronts. Which has slimmed down speed rushers lined up as standup 4-3 DE's. Are we 3-4 or not? We are stuck in the middle. Thus, our defense is a mess.

I agree with you that interior pressure has been an issue since day one.

It's much less of an issue now than it used to be. In year one, we pretty much got 0 interior pressure. Now we at least get occasional interior pressure, mostly from Bowen and Cofield. They're not upper echelon rushers like Orakpo and Kerrigan though, so you're not going to see the same level of pressure from the inside that we get on the edges.

I don't think the solution is the mammoth nose that you're thinking about. I also don't think stunting would be enough to push our interior pressure into a high level. Remember, stunting can really make you vulnerable to the run.

I don't think the old school masher at NT is an advantage for pass defense. Those guys are for gap clogging against the run, and you see their role being diminished around the NFL as teams now throw on first and second down as often as they run. Those guys are seeing their snaps diminish.

What's happening now is that a defensive lineman is getting taken off the field for a DB in most 3-4 fronts. So that necessitates versatility among your DL. The best interior style DLs need to be able to play multiple techniques. On run downs they can hold up at a 0 or 1 tech, then when the defense goes to nickel they can play 2, 3, 4, or 5 techniques and bring interior pressure.

I think we do need to upgrade the player personnel if we want to bring top level interior pressure. None of our DLs are big time disruptors.

The problem is bigger than Rak being injured, Rak vs Kerrigan, or the laughable, Rak vs Jackson.

I think Rak vs. Kerrigan and Rak vs. Jackson were only "problems" in the minds of fans who like to argue with each other and provoke discussion. It has never actually been a Rak versus Kerrigan proposition. It's always been Rak + Kerrigan. And Jackson has always been Orakpo's depth, not really a rival for his snaps or his starting role.

[pjfootballer]

Come again, Jackson lovers!?

[authentic]

Again, you don't need to be getting sacks to help the team. You need to be able to apply pressure. I think you are severely undervaluing him. Which shocks me considering how poor we've been without him on the field.

and this is why i found it necessary to recant my entire argument in the OP. Didn't expect the drop off to be THIS drastic. Unfortunately, i was proven very much wrong.

[KDawg]

and this is why i found it necessary to recant my entire argument in the OP. Didn't expect the drop off to be THIS drastic. Unfortunately, i was proven very much wrong.

Eh. You were riding the hopeful wave. The thread wasn't a good thread at any point, but you're allowed a bad one here and there brother.

[DC9]

Part of the issue you're having is you're not aware of my stance on our defense in general. Which makes this whole conversation off topic.

Our secondary is pourous, and especially against Pittsburgh, you couldn't pin the issues on lack of pressure due to how ridiculously quick the ball was leaving Ben's hands. I'm talking about this in a nutshell, from a frontage perspective. I'm not speaking on the defense as a whole.

If I did that, I'd run out of bandwidth. Haslett is a severe issue. Slowik is an issue. Our coverage unit (not necessarily just the secondary) is horrendous.

Yes. And Orakpo doesn't fix that...

This statement confuses me.

A football team is a system. It's like an aquarium. You need the proper pH to maintain it. You can't mix certain species of fish with others. Our pH is off, in large part due to our coordinator. In large part due to injury. We would have a much better pass rush with Orakpo in the game. And that is what we're talking about specifically. We're not necessarily talking coverage units here. Our assessment of our coverage units is in agreement with one another. It stinks. We're talking about one aspect here and one only: the pressure unit.

You are over thinking it.

Is this a better team with Orakpo? Yes.

Is this a playoff team or a playoff defense with Orakpo? No.

[stevemcqueen1]

You are over thinking it.

Is this a better team with Orakpo? Yes.

Is this a playoff team or a playoff defense with Orakpo? No.

I think you are oversimplifying it.

Orakpo not singlehandedly making us a playoff team does not mean "Orakpo = expendable."

Losing Orakpo pushes us significantly further away from being a good defense and playoff contender.

[KDawg]

You are over thinking it.

Is this a better team with Orakpo? Yes.

Is this a playoff team or a playoff defense with Orakpo? No.

I think you're reading into my comments about Orakpo being an elite pass rush COG way too far, to be quite honest with you. He isn't an elite sack artist, he isn't an elite linebacker. He's elite for the purpose he makes the players that benefit most from him better. I'd never sit here and tell you he's the next Lawrence Taylor. He's not. He's got a different skillset and different role. He's elite in his role. That doesn't even mean he's an elite football player. I'd entertain that debate. But for us, he's elite in his role.

And for the record, no player can make a team a playoff caliber defense alone. It takes a team. With no secondary, Rak would make a difference, but not enough to be the '85 Bears, as you brought up earlier. I still have no idea where you pulled that one from.