Does Rob Jackson make Orakpo expendable?

[Koolblue13]

I've never heard someone say all that but maybe you have....


I just think the words "overrated" and "underperformed" aren't warranted

Agreed, he is an excellent OLB. Above average league wide.

[authentic]

Orakpo isn't even Charles Mann to me. He's better than Andre Carter in his prime, but he's not a beast. It's unfair to him to compare him to someone like Ware. I think most of that comes from a starving fan base seeking approval and relevance from elsewhere in the league. I agree with you. He can be a very good player and not be a HOF'er. Good point.

I, for one, will stop comparing Rak to Ware, when folks stop saying that he's among the top pass rushers in the league.. Top 10, yeah, but closer to the bottom half to the top10 than the top half.. you can even make the arguement that he may be slightly outside of the top 10.. this is what i meant, when i say that alot of folks have over rated him.

[DC9]

But Orakpo had a better rookie year than Kerrigan did stat wise, totaling 11 sacks.

I'm all for the "you have to play who's in front of you argument and sacks still needed to be made... but didn't he sack JaWalrus and Gradkowski 4 times? I mean... he made the Pro Bowl and I was happy, but as educated a fan as you are, you have to realize (and account for) the fact that Orakpo racks up a lot of sacks against the lesser competition.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Why are folk still so ready to pull-apart and dismiss LL when he posts something he's been told?

Y'all want inside information. (Which the majority of time turns out to be accurate.). Yet when our own 'insiders' drop something, many are rushing to rubbish it.

This place really is an amusing study in human nature most times.

Hail.

[DC9]

I, for one, will stop comparing Rak to Ware, when folks stop saying that he's among the top pass rushers in the league.. Top 10, yeah, but closer to the bottom half to the top10 than the top half.. you can even make the arguement that he may be slightly outside of the top 10.. this is what i meant, when i say that alot of folks have over rated him.

I wouldn't even say top 15...

[Major Harris]

he didn't get dismissed. someone made a counterpoint. obviously, ll56 is obviously a good source, most get that if they've been around at all.

[KDawg]

I'm all for the "you have to play who's in front of you argument and sacks still needed to be made... but didn't he sack JaWalrus and Gradkowski 4 times? I mean... he made the Pro Bowl and I was happy, but as educated a fan as you are, you have to realize (and account for) the fact that Orakpo racks up a lot of sacks against the lesser competition.

Here's why: He still did it.

We don't discount Kerrigan's sacks against lesser competition. Or Ware's. Nor should you. The plays happened.

And while you are correct, that Rak has a tendency to show up in "smaller" games, you should also note that Rak's presence probably greatly helped out Kerrigan in 2011. And BOTH of their presence helped out our DL's pass rush and sack numbers.

[tshile]

You guess? No. You do.

Nice to see you've been appointed the authority on how to compare players.

Ok, I'll bite.

Why?

They had EXTREMELY similar seasons. EXTREMELY. Kerrigan had a couple more tackles, Rak had one more sack, Kerrigan had a pick. Very close to each other in statistics.

Because Kerrigan actually gets to the QB. Kerrigan actually stops the run. Orakpo just complains about being held (Kerrigan gets held too) and over pursues on a regular basis. It's become crystal clear to me, in watching the games, that teams are not afraid to run at Orakpo. There's a reason for that. I can keep repeating myself or you can read my posts.

And again, you're comparing an INSIDE LINEBACKER to a 3-4 OUTSIDE backer. Kerrigan is a fair comparison, and statistically based on last year they're just about even. But Orakpo had a better rookie year than Kerrigan did stat wise, totaling 11 sacks.

How about waiting to see how Kerrigan does sans Rak before we start saying he's better? I really like them both. I think Kerrigan is an absolute stud. But I think you're discounting 98 way too quickly.

Kerrigan had a beast game without Orakpo last week. Obviously its just one game, we'll see what happens over the next 13.

And I don't care if Fletcher is an inside line backer. I'd take Fletcher to replace Orakpo at Outside Linebacker any day of the week. It's about how he plays the game, not specific stats. The only advantage Orakpo has over Fletcher is age.

Again - just my opinion.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

he didn't get dismissed. someone made a counterpoint. obviously, ll56 is obviously a good source, most get that if they've been around at all.

In general he seems to get it in most every thread. Maybe the timing of the example in this thread wasn't great, but still.

I don't get when most of the things he's given us have turned out to be accurate how many are still so ready to challenge him. I don't know the guy from Adam, but I feel pretty safe from how we've gotten to know him over the years through his posts the very last thing he is either a liar or someone that makes things up for the heck of it.

Hail.

[tshile]

I, for one, will stop comparing Rak to Ware, when folks stop saying that he's among the top pass rushers in the league.. Top 10, yeah, but closer to the bottom half to the top10 than the top half.. you can even make the arguement that he may be slightly outside of the top 10.. this is what i meant, when i say that alot of folks have over rated him.

if 'top pass rushers' include more than just line backers I have no idea where orakpo ranks... i know if I were to make a top 20 I don't think he'd be on it, but I don't know enough players league wide to say for certain.

[CTskins]

Because that's where the "debate" has gotten, it's ridiculous and I am going to point out as irrelevant comparisons that have been made here. People have their opinions, cool... Trying to haggle all day long over the past and all these "what ifs" is for the birds. I'm sure our coaches are completely onboard with the mindset that whatever was last year or the years before matters....

Oh for Crissakes, are you serious? Throwing out useless analogies is not an argument, so much as an attempt to stir the pot. Past performance is documented and confirmable fact upon which future action is routinely based.

The Bledsoe/Brady controversy (and Brady/Cassell situation) is an apples and oranges comp simply because only 1 QB can be on the field at the same time, whereas multiple (3 or 4 in base packages) LBs are at any given time. Additionally, the respective cap hits aren’t even remotely close and neither will the compensation. Finally the decisions are being made at completely different points in the respective timelines.

Now before I get into anything Patriots-related, I must disclose that I am from Massachusetts and have lived in New England my entire life. Besides actual evidence, I also have personal feelings and thorough knowledge…Bledsoe was out for 10 games before he was cleared to play, during which time Brady went 7-3 (and 14-3 for the rest of the regular season and playoffs). No one but Belichick knows why Brady was made the starter for “the foreseeable future.” POSIT 1: It didn’t have anything to do with $$, as it was mid-season. POSIT 2: The Pats transitioned from a down-the-field offense to the dink n’ dunk game of the Early Brady years and after 10 weeks, there was no reason to change back if it’s working and getting wins. Bledsoe, for as great and loved as he was in New England (make no mistake, he was both), never started for them again. The Patriots traded Bledsoe after (wait for it)…BRADY WON THE F’N SUPER BOWL!!!! At that point, they had 17 games on which to evaluated Brady, they would clear more than $7mil in cap space (a Sh1t load in 2002 cap dollars), and negotiated for a 2003 #1 pick (i.e. the following year). See the differences yet??

Oh wait, they nor any realistic fan are. It's the here and now, which Jackson played very well- proved he CAN catch and make a play. People want to dig up stats and kick a dead horse, he had 29.5 sacks over the course of 3 years... So I use a stat and show how in one play in a second string, practice squad, hasn't made the team in 5 years, blah blah blah blah blah... Actually CAUGHT a ball and has more INT's than their future HOF"er's career.

You want to talk about the here and now, but you throw out completely debunked analogies from a decade ago? You are aware the Bledsoe/Brady episode happened in 2001-02 right? Okay let’s talk about the Here and Now…
FACT: Jackson has exactly one start in 2012.
FACT: Jackson has exactly one start in his 4 year NFL career
FACT: Jackson was the starter on a defense that gave up 38 points to the Bengals (A team against which the Browns only gave up 34 just 7 days earlier)
REASONABLE SUPPOSITION: The only reason Jackson was even on the field to make that play was because Orakpo was out for the season.
REASONABLE SUPPOSITION: The Interception and TD could not have been more giftwrapped.
REASONABLE SUPPOSITION: Based upon the aforementioned and assuming a full recovery, Orakpo is a better player with a higher ceiling than Jackson.

My feeling is that Orakpo should not get shopped. If he is, He will not command anything higher than a conditional 4th. If that is hecase, he should play out the rest of his time in Washington and we will see what we see. If Jackson pulls off a dream season, perhaps he’s the one that should be shopped.

Continue on with a constant kicking of a dead horse and bleeding your man-crush gets a response with as much care.

Call me crazy, but this is not even English…

---------- Post added September-27th-2012 at 10:17 AM ----------

Trade him to St Louis for some picks!!

And Rocky McIntosh, I suppose.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Has he lived up to all of your expectations though? I mean, 11 sack, 8.5 sacks, and 9 sacks respectively? I think what people EXPECT of him and what he is CAPABLE of are the two things you have to look at.

I'd say we expect a bit much out of him because of guys like Ware in Dallas and the Giants pass rushers. He's the closest thing we have to those guys, but he's not them.

I also think he is capable to be a guy like that, he just needs to get another move (which we all talk about). We just haven't seen it. Sure his one move is pretty effective at getting guys to step up into the pocket... but it's fair to say he could be a better player.

Bottom line with me, he can be better, and Redskins Nation just needs to accept that he is not an elite pass rusher, but he's a better than good player.

He's the best rush guy we've had since I was born. He was drafted to rush the QB and I say he is petty good at it. He's no Ware or White or LT but he's still the best player from that draft and yes, he's satisfied my expectations. Maybe my expectations were too low? Idk...but teams always want to know where he is on the field (I go and read opposing coaches' press conference and they routinely talk about him before Kerrigan or even Fletch).

[KDawg]

Nice to see you've been appointed the authority on how to compare players.

Look. You HAVE to compare OLBs in a 3-4 system with other OLBs. You get NOWHERE by comparing them to 3-4 inside backers or 4-3 outside backers. They have entirely different roles. You'd almost be better off comparing them against 4-3 DEs. It's not about having an authority, it's about understanding roles of different defenders.

Because Kerrigan actually gets to the QB.

Rak had more sacks last year than Kerrigan and played in one less game.

Orakpo just complains about being held

I don't know that he complains too much (although he certainly does at times) but I think the fanbase complains entirely too much about it. He DOES need to shed more blocks.

Kerrigan had a beast game without Orakpo last week. Obviously its just one game, we'll see what happens over the next 13.

I said the same.

And I don't care if Fletcher is an inside line backer. I'd take Fletcher to replace Orakpo at Outside Linebacker any day of the week. It's about how he plays the game, not specific stats. The only advantage Orakpo has over Fletcher is age.

If you say so.

[DC9]

Here's why: He still did it.

We don't discount Kerrigan's sacks against lesser competition. Or Ware's. Nor should you. The plays happened.

And while you are correct, that Rak has a tendency to show up in "smaller" games, you should also note that Rak's presence probably greatly helped out Kerrigan in 2011. And BOTH of their presence helped out our DL's pass rush and sack numbers.

So the tendency to show up against lesser competition and not be relevant in games that matter (not that there have been a lot of those) or games where he has a tough assignment don't botther you?

And Kerrigan looked just fine to me on Sunday, holding and all...

[skinsmania123]

http://prod.static.redskins.clubs.nf...son_Rob_TD.jpg


I know some may kill me for this, others (the minority) may agree. But thats besides the point... But, since last season, up until Sunday's game, I've been wrestling with the thought that if Jackson continues to play like he did this past week vs Cincy, does it make Orakpo expendable. Thus a candidate for a possible trade in the offseason..

From what i understand Orakpo is due to be a FA after the 2013 season. And even after a padestrian 2011 and a short, injury plagued 2012 season, he may still look for top dollar for his position... Look i love Orakpo (Hence the sig ), but IMO he has been a bit overrated as one 2 best players on defense. Actually, he's our 3rd best LB with obviously Fletch, being #1 and Kerrigan quickly shooting up to #2. After Rak's rookie season, which he had 11 sacks, most of us thought that he was on his way to being a star pass rusher, in the mode of Demarcus Ware and Terrell Suggs. Unfortunately, it appears that he has regressed since then, mostly due to having a small repertoire of moves, which he has claimed to have finally worked on this past offseason. But to be fair to him, who knows how his offseason work would have manifested on the field over the course of this season.

Nevertheless, my overall point is, if Rob Jackson (who has a small sample size of PT during the Reg Season) continues to play as he did as he did on Sunday or at other point in his career. Does it make a Orakpo expendable (i.e. explore trade options in the off season)? do we pay him top dollar after next season? Is it a big drop off in production between Rak and RJax?... what do you think?

I completely agree. Fans get so angry when I refer to Rak as a "one horse pony" but it is true. Offensive lines have learned to counter those small repertoire of moves. This is true for all NFL players who do not develop and add depth to their game. With that said Jackson is solid and I would like to see if he develops before I push the abort button on Orakpo. Plus it would be great to have them both because we are surely lacking in depth. I think we have to pay for depth.