Robert and Cam are better than Tom and Peyton, but...

[Burgold]

I think if the argument was a good, complimentary crew is essential and a qb, even a great qb can't do it alone was made... no one would argue.

But if the argument is that Joe Montana and Chad Pennington in their primes are equal or that Jeff George was in reality the best qb of all time... or that Cam and RGIII right now are better QBs than Brady and Peyton, but...

It's a little tougher to swallow. After all, who was the best qb we've had since the glory years (excluding possibly this year)

Brad Johnson. Brad Johnson of the noodle arm, slow foot, mediocre accuracy, etc was better than Donovan McNabb or Jeff George (with much better measurables on the same exact team) or a dozen other physically superior specimens. For this reason, if no other, Oldfan's theory doesn't wash.

Put Brad Johnson and Jeff George on the same team with the same coaches and if it were the measurables that mattered most, velocity and spiral, strength, speed of foot, agility, etc. Why in the world was Johnson SOOOOO much better.

[Skinsinparadise]

This is Shanny being asked by Chicago sports writers about Cutler

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/bear.../mike-shanahan

"I don't care what quarterback you have, you have to have a good supporting cast," Shanahan said. "And not only a good supporting cast, you have to have a system that really relates to the players.

"That's what you're working for as a head coach in the National Football League, to put all of that together."

[Oldfan]

... My problem with Cam Newton is his lack of leadership. He is very immature for his position, and that team will be held back to his immaturity at such an important position. In fact, hes' not even the leader on that team: Steve Smith is. And smith tells him what's up. There's a reason why Cam had impressive rookie numbers - because teams allowed him to do it in the 3rd and 4th quarters. But Cam is not ready right now. RG3 looks more ready for it than he does. The one thing you can't take away from RG3 so far, he's been in EVERY game with the ball in his hands with two 2 minute eruptions. The refs, Fred Davis, Josh Morgan, blame who you want, but RG3 was there, the score was within reach and had some things gone our way, we might be talking up a different story through week 4.

One of the things scouts agreed on about Jason Campbell coming out of Auburn was that he was a natural leader. It was BS of course. When you ask a dozen people to define what they mean by "leadership," they will give you a blank stare at first and then a dozen different answers. I can't take seriously your claim that leadership is clearly visible and you can see it in Tom Brady.

When a QB get in the face of a teammate on national television, I see an egotistical prick. I don't care if his name is Brady, Manning or Cutler. When things go bad for him, Peyton pouts like somebody just stole his favorite toy. That's taken as a sign of how much he hates to lose. When Cam pouts, it's immaturity.

As for why Ryan plays well in the regular season but not as well in the playoffs...before you look for emotional weakness in Ryan, I suggest you consider that he was likely up against better defenses in the playoffs.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 11:58 AM ----------

So, do you still rank Cutler as the best QB in the league, or are Cam Newton and RG3 better?

I can't answer that right now.

I haven't seen enough of Jay since his knee injury to be sure, but he seems to be a tad slower.

I still haven't seen enough of Cam or Robert to give a final grade on their passing ability. But I am very impressed with both.

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 12:02 PM ----------

Not RG3 specifically, I mean Oldfan's idea about intangibles not mattering and all that. Most people aren't going to agree and no one will convince him of their side.

I have had PMs asking me my opinions on RG3. There are people who are interested. If you are not...

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 12:09 PM ----------

...Brad Johnson. Brad Johnson of the noodle arm, slow foot, mediocre accuracy, etc was better than Donovan McNabb or Jeff George (with much better measurables on the same exact team) or a dozen other physically superior specimens. For this reason, if no other, Oldfan's theory doesn't wash...

IMO, you are wrong in your assessment of Brad Johnson. But even if you were right, one exception would not disprove a general rule.

[DCsportsfan53]

[/COLOR]I stopped reading after this line.[COLOR="Gold"]

Sage advice, wish I had done the same when I saw you attempt to suggest that intangibles and playoff/championship success don't factor into accurately judging a QB.

[Burgold]

[/COLOR]IMO, you are wrong in your assessment of Brad Johnson. But even if you were right, one exception would not disprove a general rule.

If you don't want to talk about Brad vs. Jeff in terms of armstrength, velocity, and measurable skills... would it help to switch to Sonny vs. Billy? Did Billy really have a better arm, tighter spiral, and more measurables than Sonny?

(Mind you, a lot of folks thought George Allen was wrong, but he believed in Billy over Sonny.)

[Oldfan]

If you don't want to talk about Brad vs. Jeff in terms of armstrength, velocity, and measurable skills... would it help to switch to Sonny vs. Billy? Did Billy really have a better arm, tighter spiral, and more measurables than Sonny?

(Mind you, a lot of folks thought George Allen was wrong, but he believed in Billy over Sonny.)

Jeff George was a head case. If you read the OP more carefully, I did not say that the intangibles never matter. So, don't argue as though that's my position.

And the Sonny/Billy discussion has squat to do with the argument in my OP.

[Burgold]

How about Vinny Testaverde vs. Tom Brady then. Same team. Vinny had a better arm at that point, tighter spiral, and may have even been more mobile (don't remember)... the team took a huge jump when the weaker armed guy took over.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth just trying to figure out your position. Billy vs. Sonny. Doug Williams vs. Jay Schroeder. Brad vs. Jeff. Vinny vs. Tom. Joe Montana vs. Steve Young.

In which of these cases does your theory hold up and why?

[Koala]

Chad Pennington= Joe Montana huh?

Nothing to see here, same old same old.........

Jay Cutler. Is better. Than Peyton Manning.

Can we get an nnt for this dude already , out of mercy for the boards readers

[Oldfan]

Jay Cutler. Is better. Than Peyton Manning.

Can we get an nnt for this dude already , out of mercy for the boards readers

Can't stand to read opposition to your precious opinions?

---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 12:46 PM ----------

How about Vinny Testaverde vs. Tom Brady then. Same team. Vinny had a better arm at that point, tighter spiral, and may have even been more mobile (don't remember)... the team took a huge jump when the weaker armed guy took over.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth just trying to figure out your position. Billy vs. Sonny. Doug Williams vs. Jay Schroeder. Brad vs. Jeff. Vinny vs. Tom. Joe Montana vs. Steve Young.

In which of these cases does your theory hold up and why?

You probably mean Bledsoe not Testaverde and there was very little obvious difference between Bledsoe and Brady on the tangibles. Moreover, the Patriots passing game was only about average in those early years regardless of which QB was under center. That Patriots defense was the much stronger unit.

As for figuring out my position, I suggest you read the OP again. If there is something in that argument you don't understand, quote the part that you don't understand and I will try explaining it better.

[Jumbo]

Jay Cutler. Is better. Than Peyton Manning.

Can we get an nnt for this dude already , out of mercy for the boards readers

You are about 100 times more likely to get your own account suspended in one way or another then OF. That's using the ES staff metric.

[Ashburn Dave]

I have Chad Pennington on a par with Bart Starr and Joe Montana

I stopped reading after this line.

[21cents]

umm ya your wrong. Cam Newton is hardly a good qb. He put up decent stats last year but it was bcause most of the games they lost and he was just putting up stats in garbage time.

[Oldfan]

I stopped reading after this line.

You missed the chance to learn something.

[HailToTheRedskins14]

What exactly is the point? You say intangibles are for "BS artists" but then say "Well, intangibles do matter, too". You say it is important to have a good surrounding cast, but that's obvious. I don't get how this makes Newton and RG3 better than Peyton and Brady. Are you saying that throwing a tight spiral on a line and having tape-measure athleticism with a good surrounding cast makes a good QB? That's obvious.

But decision making is important. You put a guy like Jason Campbell on any team in the league, and then people will just say "Well, his supporting cast sucks. Look how often he gets sacked. WR's must not be getting open, and his OL sucks." Well...no. If a QB holds onto the ball all day and is scared to pull the trigger, then the supporting cast doesn't matter. And things like leadership make an offensive line want to block for the guy. The intangibles trickle all over the team. The offensive line will work harder to buy a guy like Tom Brady time because they know he can do something with the ball. If they have a guy behind him looking like a deer in headlights, what's the incentive?

I've read the first post three times and can't seem to get the argument here. Where does hard work off the field come into play? Attitude? I feel like you're saying that stuff doesn't matter, but I know you'll say it does. Am I incorrect in understanding that the measurables are the most important part of a QB? And more important that "intangibles" like leadership, intelligence, decision-making, and work ethic?

[Jumbo]

I stopped reading after this line.

I also suggest people stop popping into the thread at this point just to "contribute" this kind of post (no reflection on AD who is a fine poster, himself). At this point it's a response worthy of a spam violation. Argue the OP.

I see a few basic points I agree with, for instance (like many typical ways various QB ratings/stats are used in evaluation by fans are relatively insubstantial and quite team-reflective) and some I don't (like subjective evaluation and importance of leadership and football/intelligence/decision making--both real in my world and both hard to give objective measure in some metric form). So join the conversation or move on.

(meaning the drive-by slams are represented well enough. continued repetition is not adding anything. while the OP offers a controversial claim, it's hardly the dumbass deal some like to make it out to be, particularly noting how many actual dumbass threads many here seem just fine with ).