I actually agree with a lot of this. Do I think that Chad Pennington is as good as Joe Montana? No. But if you compared stats of years when Chad started most of the year vs. some of Joe's seasons I think most people on this board would be extremely surprised.
I actually think the Eli Manning and if he's an elite QB argument plays really well into this. Eli has won the big one more then Peyton, Young, Marino, Dan Fouts, and many others have. But is Eli honestly nearly as good as any of those guys are/were in their prime? The answer is no, so you can't just say he's elite because he won two super bowls. It's not as if Eli hasn't had the benefit of a stellar defense and lot's of weapons on offense or anything.... He still came back and beat the Eagles without Hakeem Nicks, right? So no, you should not be super impressed by stats and super bowls because they are largely a product of supporting casts.
As far as if QB-athletes are better then pocket passers (Is Cam better then Peyton) there is a point to be made that Cam can't beat you in more ways and keep you off balance. But he also said there are a number of issues with a team having a dual threat QB like RGIII and Cam. In fact, OF said himself that he doesn't know which one is better if the goal is to win championships.
Last point: If you think Joe T should be in the HOF, you should put more stock into OF's argument. It's got a lot of what people have been saying in it.
We cannot fairly grade and compare QBs on their actual performances which are so drastically influenced by their supporting casts. One QB might be playing to 80% of his potential while another is at 50%. We cannot tell which QB has the greater potential by watching their actual performances or by looking at stats which measure the actual performance.
Last edited by Oldfan; October-6th-2012 at 02:07 PM.
First lets define some terms - when I talk about passing its more than just the ability to throw a football hard or even accurately. It's the ability to know where to go with the ball based on coverage, game situation, your personnel amd the defensive personnel - and your own limitations. It's the ability to do this and execute consistently to a high level under pressure from the defense, the scoreboard and the game pressure.
I would certainly agree that Cutler is a better thrower than Manning but IMO Manning has shown he is a much better passer than Cutler.
Last edited by MartinC; October-6th-2012 at 02:19 PM.
Intangibles cannot be dismissed. While they are difficult (if not damn near impossible) to measure, the outcomes (wins) are not. There is a reason why most playoff games and SB's have NOT been won by these so-called athletic quaterbacks. There is a reason why fantastic athletes like Randall Cunnigham and Michael Vick have no Super Bowl wins. You can't name another QB with the combination of arm strength and speed that those guys have, or had. Tony Romo is quite moblie and just fails in the playoffs. Tartkenton never won the big one. Steve Young is the only true athletic mobile QB that has won a Super Bowl--well, Elway, but Elway was near the end and not nearly as mobile as he was in previous years. Speaking of being near the end, Cunningham had his great year in Minnesota after age forced him to slow down his game.
What one needs to do is identify these intangibles and make sense of them. One intangible that can be looked at that way is coaching. Why do some players, or teams, excel under one coach but not another? I have three former students of mine in the NFL. 14 former students play D1 football. An NFL coach is my neighbor. Every one of them talks about intangibles, or an "it" factor. It is there. I can say from my own experience about it. I played baseball for 17 years, three of them as a pitcher at a D1 school (rotator cuff injuries ended my average career). All of my teammates were great athletes. So why are three of them on MLB rosters but the others are not? Is it speed? Power? Knowledge of the sport? Work ethic? Coaching? Let's look at QB's in this vein. Every NFL QB can throw a ball 60 yards. Every QB has at least some degree of mobility (well, maybe not Eli and Ben). Every QB knows how to grip a ball, what a curl is, an out pattern is, how to lead a receiver, blah blah blah. But not every QB can pick up the blitz, read a defense, or be cool under fire when their o-line pulls a Rabach and gives an "ole!" block. Why?
Guess what? I can't tell you why, because I can't give a true accurate measurement of why. But I (and a lot of NFL fans, coaches, players, and commentators) can also say from observation that certain QB's CAN read a defense or pick up a blitz, or not panic and get happy feet when their line breaks down. The fact that I don't know how to accurately measure what I see doesn't mean that it can be discounted. Frankly, I'm not going against the best experts--coaches and players in the game. Intangibles cannot be dismissed, since they do indeed count. If you say they shouldn't, then you are up against the opinion of players and coaches alike.
The point you make about throwing under pressure from the defense is fair - just about any QB will perform better given better protection. Again I do agree that the supporting cast - of which pass protection is an important element - is important in a QBs production.
So is the ability to read coverages, anticipate receivers coming out of breaks, seeing where pressure is coming from and getting in the right protection, knowing where your hot read is against a specific blitz and making the right decisions based on processing all this information. You may say that this all intangible and then dismiss it from your ratings but to me that's as wrong as the fan who says a QB is great because the team he plays on won lots of games.
Of course it's very hard to grade these intangibles, maybe impossible for a fan, but that does not diminish their importance.
Sometimes a thesis can come in handy.
What is the OP's point?
how does jay cutlers attitude effect your opinion? he nearly lost his team after that packers game by throwing his line under the bus, and his bad attitude problems have been well known since he was in college... he may be very gifted, but you do not do what he did to your teammates on national tv... look at brady, manning, brees etc and you will see qbs who lead their teams by example, and when they yell at a teammate it almost always causes in improvement and gets them on the same page
@ Good athlete-QBs have been rare in the past which would explain why pocket passers have won more Super Bowls.
@ Once past the Xs and Os, coaches, players and commentators don't impress me with their knowledge of the game. It's not hard to spot their mistakes in reasoning or their misuse of statistics. What I'm offering here is a logical argument. Telling me that I'm wrong because most people disagree is a logical fallacy.
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---------- Post added October-6th-2012 at 04:20 PM ----------
Last edited by Oldfan; October-6th-2012 at 03:17 PM.
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