Grading Bruce Allen

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The WP did an expose years ago of the decision making structure under Gibbs 2, and the way it was described -- Gibbs and assistant coaches would state their needs, in turn Vinny would give the player recommendations, Gibbs would mostly go along with Vinny's recommendations, Vinny would go to Danny to get his take, they'd discuss, then Vinny and Danny would negotiate the deal/trade.

I just get the impression from those that have commented who have worked with Danny -- that its way too much fun for him to stay out of it unless he has no choice. One reporter who covers this team for 980 said his source told him for example Danny went with Vinny to scout M. Kelly and fell in love with him, some of the Redskins scouts were wary about his injury history but Danny wanted him so they drafted him. You never know this stuff might be wrong but it seems like lot of smoke to the fire -- stuff like Danny liking the idea of acquiring Lance Briggs and trying to talk Gibbs into make the move. Him and Vinny loving Chad Johnson, offering 2 first round picks for him -- thankfully the trade got rejected, etc. Him watching tape with coaches, etc.

We couldn't put together a flow chart for the offensive playcalling under Gibbs 2.0, let alone the front office flow. Gibbs was obviously in charge of everything, but he seemed very fond of sharing authority and letting everyone have a voice. We kept hearing things like "That's a Williams' pick" and "He's a Cerrato signing" then. I got the impression that Gibbs genuinely wanted everyone - even Danny - involved. I don't think it worked entirely. (Though it did work better than anything else we have tried).

Schottenheimer, Gibbs, and Shanahan all have the same level of control though. And Shanahan - control freak that he is - does not seem to be the type to not use his control. I think this is very similar to the way Parcells ran things in Dallas.

[Oldfan]

The WP did an expose years ago of the decision making structure under Gibbs 2, and the way it was described -- Gibbs and assistant coaches would state their needs, in turn Vinny would give the player recommendations, Gibbs would mostly go along with Vinny's recommendations, Vinny would go to Danny to get his take, they'd discuss, then Vinny and Danny would negotiate the deal/trade.

I just get the impression from those that have commented who have worked with Danny -- that its way too much fun for him to stay out of it unless he has no choice. One reporter who covers this team for 980 said his source told him for example Danny went with Vinny to scout M. Kelly and fell in love with him, some of the Redskins scouts were wary about his injury history but Danny wanted him so they drafted him. You never know this stuff might be wrong but it seems like lot of smoke to the fire -- stuff like Danny liking the idea of acquiring Lance Briggs and trying to talk Gibbs into making the move. Him and Vinny loving Chad Johnson, offering 2 first round picks for him -- thankfully the trade got rejected, etc. Him watching tape with coaches, etc.

We couldn't put together a flow chart for the offensive playcalling under Gibbs 2.0, let alone the front office flow. Gibbs was obviously in charge of everything, but he seemed very fond of sharing authority and letting everyone have a voice. We kept hearing things like "That's a Williams' pick" and "He's a Cerrato signing" then. I got the impression that Gibbs genuinely wanted everyone - even Danny - involved. I don't think it worked entirely. (Though it did work better than anything else we have tried).

Schottenheimer, Gibbs, and Shanahan all have the same level of control though. And Shanahan - control freak that he is - does not seem to be the type to not use his control. I think this is very similar to the way Parcells ran things in Dallas.

Both these posts ring true when you consider the personalities involved beginning with Dan Snyder. I can imagine Gibbs delegating responsibility easily but not wisely. I can't see Shanahan delegating anything having to do with player evaluation to Bruce Allen. I think he would be dealing directly with his director of player personnel.

I blame Snyder for giving Gibbs and Shanahan total control. They manage differently, but they are typical football coaches with win-now goals.

[Skinsinparadise]

Both these posts ring true when you consider the personalities involved beginning with Dan Snyder. I can imagine Gibbs delegating responsibility easily but not wisely. I can't see Shanahan delegating anything having to do with player evaluation to Bruce Allen. I think he would be dealing directly with his director of player personnel.

I blame Snyder for giving Gibbs and Shanahan total control. They manage differently, but they are typical football coaches with win-now goals.

Gibbs himself in interviews said that Danny him and Cerrato would get in a room and discuss FO moves. While I agree I'd rather have a strong GM than a coach in charge of it all, I feel even stronger that I don't like Danny being involved in personnel decisions. so I'd take a heavy handed Marty running the full ship and Shanny to a democratic process where Danny has a strong voice.

Edit: though I have to say I really like thus far Shanny's drafts and how he has turned over what he inherited which was a declining team with the oldest roster in the league. The McNabb trade was a train wreck though.

[Oldfan]

Gibbs himself in interviews said that Danny him and Cerrato would get in a room and discuss FO moves. While I agree I'd rather have a strong GM than a coach in charge of it all, I feel even stronger that I don't like Danny being involved in personnel decisions. so I'd take a heavy handed Marty running the full ship and Shanny to a democratic process where Danny has a strong voice.

Edit: though I have to say I really like thus far Shanny's drafts and how he has turned over what he inherited which was a declining team with the oldest roster in the league. The McNabb trade was a train wreck though.

I'm too old to be willing to settle for a choice between two incompetent approaches. Of the conventional approaches available, I'l like to see Snyder setting the goal for the organization and monitoring the major decisions to see that they are aligned with the goal. Then, I'd like to see him hire a GM with the responsibility to select his coach.

On the other hand, if Snyder isn't going to make becoming number one, the model franchise in the NFL, then it doesn't matter much to me how he manages it.

[Skinsinparadise]

On the other hand, if Snyder isn't going to make becoming number one, the model franchise in the NFL, then it doesn't matter much to me how he manages it.

I don't wonder whether Snyder has the desire but whether he has the temperament to let it play out that way. Obviously, I've never met the guy so i am running on what has been said about him -- the vibe I get it:

A.. he's willing to behave for a period but then he grows impatient
B.. He's learned more patience over the years but he still is an up and down with the moment kind of guy but he can bottle it in.

He reminds me in a way of the description of George Steinbrenner, though not as bad as him -- he wants to win really really really bad -- and its the really really really stuff that makes him impetuous and expedient at the wrong time.

I'd guess Danny would get out of the way, if he got quicker results from his coaches but he might not have the patience for example to ensure 4-5 years of mediocrity or less for a larger goal.

[Thinking Skins]

Allen cannot fire his boss.

I don't see why this is so difficult: Shanahan has all the power here. He is Joe Gibbs. Allen works for him. The only person who can fire Shanahan is Danny.

Yeah, so this becomes a problem if Shanny gets let go. Does that mean Allen goes too? And if so, then will Allen become a true GM in that case, or will Snyder simply hire another big name coach (Dungy? Cowher?) to come in and serve the same (or a similar) role? I just don't like the power structure. I never did and unless we start winning, I think I'll continue to have problems with it.

[Oldfan]

...I'd guess Danny would get out of the way, if he got quicker results from his coaches but he might not have the patience for example to ensure 4-5 years of mediocrity or less for a larger goal.

Putting myself in Danny's shoes...there's no telling how long it might take to climb over 31 other franchises to reach the top. I would want to see steady progress being made toward that goal, but I would not use wins as a standard for measurement because an 8-win team could win 6 or 10 during any given season depending on the breaks.

---------- Post added October-10th-2012 at 12:30 PM ----------

Yeah, so this becomes a problem if Shanny gets let go. Does that mean Allen goes too? And if so, then will Allen become a true GM in that case, or will Snyder simply hire another big name coach (Dungy? Cowher?) to come in and serve the same (or a similar) role? I just don't like the power structure. I never did and unless we start winning, I think I'll continue to have problems with it.

The Saints owner hired GM Mickey Loomis who gave them their best draft ever and hired Sean Payton. Loomis and Payton agreed that free agent Drew Brees, coming off shoulder surgery, was worth an offer.

In order of importance, the three individuals who can change a team's fortune: 1) The GM; 2) the Head Coach; 3) the starting QB.

That's the formula for a turnaround.

[Thinking Skins]

The Saints owner hired GM Mickey Loomis who gave them their best draft ever and hired Sean Payton. Loomis and Payton agreed that free agent Drew Brees, coming off shoulder surgery, was worth an offer.

In order of importance, the three individuals who can change a team's fortune: 1) The GM; 2) the Head Coach; 3) the starting QB.

That's the formula for a turnaround.

If you say so.

I think the formula for success is accountability. So its up to Snyder to put people in place to make the proper decisions and if those people are not making the proper decisions then they need to be removed. But when he hires guys who are his flimseys then the line is blurred. Was Vinny really that dumb or was he just doing what his pay grade said, "follow mr. Snyder's instructions". This may not lead to instant success, but its the process that businesses go through; its the process that just about every other sports franchise in just about every sport in America (and probably the world) goes through. Players play, coaches coach and GMs Gm. Just like I don't want to see a player giving advice on who we should be trading for, I don't want my coach picking the fruit for the salad that he may or may not be here to enjoy. I want my coach concentrating on winning with what he's given. I want my GM to be thinking about having a quality team this year as well as years to come.

I don't mind having a coach who has all the power as long as we know that he has the power and he can be fired accordingly (I will note that these situations generally haven't worked, hence the need to have a Bruce Allen with the GM title acknowledging that Shanny can't do it alone. But when we're firing Zorn when he has no power in choosing his coordinators and position coaches, let alone his players, I'm a bit skeptical about the structure of our front office. It wouldn't surprise me if we were to blame Allen for the mistakes of the last K years and attempt to give Mike a new GM. I pray that's not what happens because I think Allen is at least a decent GM, nothing spectacular but enough to get us on stable ground if given the chance. But what do I know, maybe he's bought into Danny's free agents are the way of the future, Madden 1997-esque way of owning a team. Its not how he did it in Tampa, but people change.

[sempre_victrix]

Overall, I like what he's done. The Cundiff signing and trade for McNabb stick out as WTF moments, but I guess he was channeling his inner Cerrato. He didn't know that Landry was going to bust for us, so he probably counted on him being here this year. Letting Rogers walk was another mistake, too.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Yeah, so this becomes a problem if Shanny gets let go. Does that mean Allen goes too?

I don't think Danny will fire Shanahan. I really don't. He coveted him as his coach for so long that I think he will let this play out until a) it's either completely hopeless or b) Shanahan decides to retire either after great success or simple exhaustion.

I personally like the strong GM model for a franchise, but I don't think that can work here. I also don't think a young, up and coming coach could work here. I think the only model that has ever shown any chance of working is the "star" coach who has complete control. It looked like it might eventually work under Marty. It kind of worked under Gibbs. We have not won games, but we've been somewhat coherent under Shanahan.

It seems like Danny needs one person to have all the control. Otherwise, he has too many access points to the day to day football operations.

[Thinking Skins]

I don't think Danny will fire Shanahan. I really don't. He coveted him as his coach for so long that I think he will let this play out until a) it's either completely hopeless or b) Shanahan decides to retire either after great success or simple exhaustion.

Nah, he's on a contract and if he doesn't produce he shouldn't be rewarded with a new contract. Its like I said, lack of accountability.

I personally like the strong GM model for a franchise, but I don't think that can work here. I also don't think a young, up and coming coach could work here. I think the only model that has ever shown any chance of working is the "star" coach who has complete control. It looked like it might eventually work under Marty. It kind of worked under Gibbs. We have not won games, but we've been somewhat coherent under Shanahan.

It seems like Danny needs one person to have all the control. Otherwise, he has too many access points to the day to day football operations.

Why not? It works on practically every other team. I mean pitt did it with Tomlin, Dallas continues to do it. Green Bay did it. San Fran did it. I mean, rebuilding takes time and you have to actually put effort into it, you can't just hire a bandaid coach and say 'everythings fine'. Thats what got us into this perpetual system of being the worse team in the NFC East.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Why not? It works on practically every other team. I mean pitt did it with Tomlin, Dallas continues to do it. Green Bay did it. San Fran did it. I mean, rebuilding takes time and you have to actually put effort into it, you can't just hire a bandaid coach and say 'everythings fine'. Thats what got us into this perpetual system of being the worse team in the NFC East.

It doesn't work in Dallas and it doesn't work here because of the owners. It works elsewhere because of the owners.

Since he bought the team, Jerry Jones has had two people capable of telling him no - Johnson and Parcells. Those two men set up the Cowboys for their own periods of success under Jones. Any success the Cowboys still have is just a remnant of what Parcells did. Those players are cycling out now.

We've never had any real success under Danny. The only chance of any success is a Shanahan type. The problem with this is: Shanahan types are rarely as good once they get all the power.

Unless RGIII becomes a simply overwhelming talent, I'm not we can ever really be a consistent winner under Danny.

[Thinking Skins]

It doesn't work in Dallas and it doesn't work here because of the owners. It works elsewhere because of the owners.

Since he bought the team, Jerry Jones has had two people capable of telling him no - Johnson and Parcells. Those two men set up the Cowboys for their own periods of success under Jones. Any success the Cowboys still have is just a remnant of what Parcells did. Those players are cycling out now.

We've never had any real success under Danny. The only chance of any success is a Shanahan type. The problem with this is: Shanahan types are rarely as good once they get all the power.

Unless RGIII becomes a simply overwhelming talent, I'm not we can ever really be a consistent winner under Danny.

Dallas has the same problem as the Skins. In many ways Jerry is Danny's role model. But if you take these teams (and the Raiders) as the exception then my point stands.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Dallas has the same problem as the Skins. In many ways Jerry is Danny's role model. But if you take these teams (and the Raiders) as the exception then my point stands.

I agree with you that the best model is a good GM picking good players for a good coach. I just can't see that ever happening here with Danny.

[Bishop Hammer]

Allen has done a solid job. Bearing in mind he's not making all the major decisions himself. I wouldn't be surprised if Shanahan has the final say on all major roster moves.

Bruce is known more for salary cap management than player acquisition. But so far I'm satisfied with his performance.