One of the Redskins BIGGEST continued failings, both sides of the ball: 3rd down conversions/ stops.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Jim Haslett and Kyle Shanahan have been the respective defensive and offensive coordinator's for this team the past 3 years through the present regime. And both have failed in getting their respective units to excel at that most crucial of football plays, the third down.

NO play in football is more important than a third down play IMHO.

Make the necessary yardage on offense, you keep momentum and drives alive.

Stop the opponent on defense, and you flip momentum and get your offense back onto the field.

It's the 'money' down. Most times, first and second down sets you up for the crucial 3rd, where you HAVE to bring your A game. If you don't succeed on third down, chances are you won't succeed in the game.

On offense, through Kyle's three years here, we're currently running at a shocking 32% third down conversion rate. (156/ 487.). In less than a third of the total third downs we've had the advantage of lining up for them, we've failed miserably. And this season it's regressing even more.

To date in 2012, we've made a whopping 14 of 60 third downs (23%), leaving the team currently dead last in the league in the category. In his first year, 2010, we ranked 31st with 29% made. (61/ 208.). Last year we improved to middle of the pack at 15th with 37% made. (81/ 219.).

If we don't hit on a big play in the first two downs, more often than not the D is gona' be coming back onto the field. You can't sustain progression as an offense, which we're all agreed is happening thanks to that very special dude in the #10 jersey; if you can't keep the unit on the darn field the majority of drives.

On the other side of the ball, we don't fair much better than a middle of the road unit on third down stops.

Richie Petitbon, our greatest ever DC, and a defensive mind up there with the best of them from any era; used to say only two defensive stats mattered to him. Takeaways and third down stops.

Obviously Haslett didn't get the memo.

Through his time here, we're running at 36% at getting the opposing offense off the field in third down situations. (176 stops from 481 attempts.). Not shockingly bad. But far from top end if you ever want to seriously compete for honors again. Leaving us averagely around the middle of the pack.

This year to date, we lie 13th in the league with 24 third down stops out of 61 we've faced. (39%). That's up slightly on last years 17th ranking, with 77 stops from 206 situations. (37%.). And a slight increase on 2010's 35% third down success rate. (75/ 214- 25th in the NFL.).

The defense HAS to start applying more pressure and bringing it on third downs to get the opposition off the field. We need more stops and more momentum changes.

And the OC HAS to figure out a way to keep his unit on the field and start converting crucial third downs. Or else all the talent given to him in the World will just continue to go to waste.

This is one area, both sides of the ball, that there can no longer be ANY excuses for. Both guys are in the third year of their systems, with increased talent at their disposal.

Third down success in the grand scheme of things could go a long way to contributing to both guys keeping their jobs or not.

Hail.

[gortiz]

NO play in football is more important than a third down play IMHO..

I agree ... big time.

What is perplexing is with our top ranked rushing stats, which I'm assuming the majority of it is being done on 1st and 2nd down, why are we not getting more manageable thirds, and why are we not converting them?

One reason might be, don't have the raw numbers, but the skins are 31st in the number penalties called and penalty yardage ... HOW MANY DRIVES HAS THAT KILLED??? Or better yet, how many times has that given us crappy down and distance opportunities accross the downs and consequently longer than usual third downs.

[Boss_Hogg]

I think the defensive 3rd conversions are the most damning. It's almost like the Redskins play with 9 men on defense, I've never see so many wide open receivers on crucial third down situations.

call it zone coverage
call it lack of pressure
call it poor coverage

I don't care, just fix it!

[KDawg]

3rd downs are a small portion of total plays in a game, which is why when you face one it's paramount that you convert. They're not doing a great job with that. And it's pretty bad in the grand scheme. We must get better.

[DC9]

3rd downs are a small portion of total plays in a game, which is why when you face one it's paramount that you convert. They're not doing a great job with that. And it's pretty bad in the grand scheme. We must get better.

This. Through the first few weeks the matra was "well, we are still getting first down on first and second down." That didn't happen this week. And as it was pointed out in another thread by RP, when a team drives on you, that keeps Robert off the field. When you don't convert on on third downs on offense, Robert has to go off the field.

[Hitman21ST]

Third down conversions are important, but our offense is getting it done on first and second, so it's not as big a deal to me as it normally would. We're top ten in scoring, yards, and total first downs, so I can look past poor third down conversions. If we had Bingo Caller's offense and this 3rd down rate, or had an inordinate number of three and outs, then I would be up in arms. But we're still putting drives together, we're just getting it done on 1st and 2nd down.

Would I like them to improve? Definitely. Is there stuff our O can improve? You bet your ass. Is it the end of the world that we're not converting 3rd downs? No. Should Kyle be crucified for this (not saying you're advocating that, but some people are)? Not at all.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Third down conversions are important, but our offense is getting it done on first and second, so it's not as big a deal to me as it normally would. We're top ten in scoring, yards, and total first downs, so I can look past poor third down conversions. If we had Bingo Caller's offense and this 3rd down rate, or had an inordinate number of three and outs, then I would be up in arms. But we're still putting drives together, we're just getting it done on 1st and 2nd down. .....

That's all well and good when we hit the big play on first or second bro'. (And to date, it's to RGIII's credit that he we have.).

But when we don't, ala Sunday, we're more often than not screwed. I think your underselling the real concern here. You can't realistically expect to keep competing and not be able to win out in crucial 3rd down situations. The longer we go, the more teams will lesson those explosive first/ second down plays.

Hail.

[LaxinFish29]

That's all well and good when we hit the big play on first or second bro'. (And to date, it's to RGIII's credit that he we have.).

I agree completely with your OP but we cant blame Kyle for the bad and not give him credit for the good.

Are there times RGIII made that percentage better? Sure, but shouldnt he do the same on 3rd?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

On offense, I think part of it is the way defenses play us. Teams don't blitz Robert. When Kirk came into the game, you saw the defenses turn up the heat. But other than that one corner blitz off the edge early? Teams don't bring the heat on him.

Third down is usually a blitz down, or a pressure down. It's the exact opposite with Robert since teams are scared of him hitting the big play with his arm, or scrambling for a first down. So teams rush 3-4, and they drop everyone else (usually in zone), and force Robert to try to complete passes in tight windows. On one play Atlanta dropped a d-lineman into coverage.

We were also killed by bad drops, but Robert wasn't totally on his game yesterday either.

I think it'll get better before it gets worse.


As for the defense...ugh. It's to the point where I'd have a panic attach if I ever saw us do anything creative on third down...

It'll get better before it gets worse.

..... Like I said, I think the offense will get it together, though. Kyle's still trying to figure out the best way to use the new toy.

Still think it'll get better before the season is done.

I have no such faith about the defense.

Well, FWIW, Kyle's first two years as an OC in Houston, with a far more stable system and better personal; did see the Texans significantly better at 3rd down conversions than his Redskin counterparts. In 2008, the Texans ranked 10th in the league at 42%. (83/ 187.). They dropped off slightly in his second year, 2009, to 40%. (82/ 204- 15th ranked overall.).

I appreciate their trying to fit the scheme around Robert, and learning week-on-week as they go; but he'd better hope it does 'get better before it gets worse'; as, harsh or not, in year three with better personnel added each year, it has no choice but to improve.

The record here to date has been shockingly bad and exceptionally costly.

Completely agree, sadly, on the career average, wholly uninventive, predictable DC. I'm counting down the games to Morris, but that's for another thread.

I agree completely with your OP but we cant blame Kyle for the bad and not give him credit for the good.

Are there times RGIII made that percentage better? Sure, but shouldnt he do the same on 3rd?

That's a fair and pertinent point. I wasn't meaning to put all the success of the big first and second down gains on Robert. Kyle deserves his share of the props in the play calling for that too.

I guess I just ran with RGIII in that post as it's only since his arrival we've started to become more dynamic and a big play threat.

Hail.

[LaxinFish29]

Well, FWIW, Kyle's first two years as an OC in Houston, with a far more stable system and better personal; did see the Texans significantly better at 3rd down conversions than his Redskin counterparts. In 2008, the Texans ranked 10th in the league at 42%. (83/ 187.). They dropped off slightly in his second year, 2009, to 40%. (82/ 204- 15th ranked overall.).

I appreciate their trying to fit the scheme around Robert, and learning week-on-week as they go; but he'd better hope it does 'get better before it gets worse'; as, harsh or not, in year three with better personnel added each year, it has no choice but to improve.

The record here to date has been shockingly bad and exceptionally costly.

Completely agree, sadly, on the career average, wholly uninventive, predictable DC. I'm counting down the games to Morris, but that's for another thread.



That's a fair and pertinent point. I wasn't meaning to put all the success of the big first and second down gains on Robert. Kyle deserves his share of the props in the play calling for that too.

I guess I just ran with RGIII in that post as it's only since his arrival we've started to become more dynamic and a big play threat.

Hail.

Thats understandable, with previous QBs we were bad on first second third and fourth down...its hard not to get carried away, I do the same.

---------- Post added October-9th-2012 at 04:49 PM ----------

I think it's more a matter of execution. If Fred, Santana or Pierre catch some of the balls they dropped on Sunday, we're not talking about this a whole lot; Kyle called the right play, Robert made the right read (though maybe, a couple times, not the best throw), but the guy drops the ball.

That's why I say it'll get better before it gets worse.

I tend to agree with this as well, think its a mixture of both. I guess I have mush less faith in the D.

[Hitman21ST]

Now, on defense, I 100% agree with you. We need to get our **** straight ASAP. We're close, and getting better in the secondary will help a lot, but we're not quite there yet.

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Nice break down GHH...it is very hard watching this team year in and year out when we can never stop another team on 3rd down....hate it

I wonder what would happen if our O went up against our D on 3rd and long.....Hmmmmmm

[Skinz4Life12]

we need to learn to catch the freaking ball on third down

[BobGriffin]

For whatever the reason we can make first downs but when we get to 3rd down we are almost always in third and long it's either a penalty or like a play for a loss followed by an incompletion. It seems as if majority of the time we face third down we are off schedule. Look at the falcons it seemed like every third down they faced was 3 and 5 or shorter.

[KDawg]

Just started working on something... I'm going to try to do it for each game, also going down by down of percentage of yards gained (but I haven't done that for Atlanta yet, either)... But here's the breakdown vs. Atlanta:

1st down plays: 23
-averaged 9.9 yards to go on first (we had a 1st and goal from the 9 )
-gained 6 first downs (26%)
-1 turnover
-needed 229 yards in total, gained 135.

2nd down plays: 16
-Averaged 8.1 yards to go on 2nd.
-gained 4 first downs (25%)
-1 turnover
-needed 131 yards total, gained 82.

3rd down plays: 9
-Averaged 6.1 yards to go on 3rd
-gained 0 first downs
-scored one touchdown
-needed 55 yards, gained 86 (77 of which were on the TD)