CBS Washington: Study: One-Third of Adults Under 30 Have No Religious Affiliation

[Destino]

Actually yes, birth control and empowerment of women is the tried and true solution to poverty.

Great. So then the answer is "yes" that feeding the hungry and preaching is the same as not feeding them? I'm just trying to figure out how much reality reaches you behind that curtain of theory.

I'm reminded of people that used to ask if it bothered me that rich donors cared so much about tax incentives. The response was simple: helping the poor was the mission and the other stuff is secondary. If you think that helping without the religious stuff is better ill give you the same answer.

China imposes birth control and is decidedly anti religious. India has a completely different view on family size and is much more religious. Poverty and population issues exist in large numbers in both places. Your simplistic view of an issue that has plagues humanity since our numbers were TINY is ridiculous and arrogant.

[DjTj]

That's the problem with religion, isn't it? Once you build that highway of credulity, people can take advantage of it.

But that's true of any trusted institution, isn't it? There is also junk science, and it can be very dangerous when wielded by interested parties, like oil industry-funded climate studies.

Help is better than no help, and help without the indoctrination is better than help with indoctrination...

What if the indoctrination is essential to providing to help? Alcoholics Anonymous relies on a belief in a higher power as part of their twelve-step program. What if that is an important component of beating addiction for many people?

His life could have taken several different tracks. Some tracks would be clearly worse than getting indoctrinated. Some tracks would be clearly better. While there are clear short term benefits to the church helping him, as far as I can tell his long term capability to flourish has been severely diminished.

Does his mental state have to be permanent? Might he still be on a path to a full understanding of his faith? You seemed to describe his arguments about evolution as very shallow, and it seems like there may be opportunity for growth there, whether it is inside or outside of his religion.

So this gets us into a question about human flourishing. Generally, I would base my principles about human flourising on what is real. I value happiness, feeling of fulfillment, lack of suffering, etc, but the "reality" of these things seems to be an important factor. Otherwise it could be said that human flourishing can be produced by a virtual reality device that electrically stimulates proper regions of our brains.

Things get complicated if you offer a choice between reality-based suffering and fairlytale-based happiness. I say we should go with the reality unless there is a really really really good reason to do otherwise (assuming such a reason is even possible).

What if the "fairy tale" is the best path towards flourishing in reality? What if it is reality?

I think that is a great question, and it is still open. I do not think that government can provide same services according to the traditional model. I see government's role here is that of a facilitor. Communities could form around local libraries, educational institutions, etc. I do agree that there would be a void in communities if churches were to disappear tomorrow. I understand that various secular/atheist organizations are working on forming local communities, but their work is far from done.

But local libraries are becoming less active, not more active. Participation in PTAs and other community organizations is generally down. In some ways, the retreat of Americans away from church services is just part of a larger trend of retreat from civic institutions in general. It may be a broader change in society rather than simply a religious vs. non-religious issue.

I think that problems with humans and human institutions will remain, and that they should be examined and addressed. I think this process will go much smoother as we do not hold any institution above evaluation and criticism.

I agree, and churches themselves should be subject to more evaluation and criticism. Although they are formed to worship God, churches are run by men, and are thus inherently flawed. Falling attendance should be an indication that they need to make some changes.

[Jumbo]

What if the indoctrination is essential to providing to help? Alcoholics Anonymous relies on a belief in a higher power as part of their twelve-step program. What if that is an important component of beating addiction for many people?

Not trying to be nit-picky, Dj, but since I'm involved with much AA stuff again lately (not as a member), I just want to add that the program doesn't "rely" on any one particular angle, even though it strongly suggests (to varying degrees) certain aspects (like doing the 12 steps), and some more than others, are vital for best chance at success in their experience. The program offers many frames for this "higher power" other than theistic (i.e. a particular group or the fellowship at large can be it, especially at first). They do however emphasize an importance to keeping an open mind to things of spiritual, and even religious (Christian influence in particular is strong in AA) nature.

Sorry for even more OT digression, and I do want the OP to be respected, but felt I should comment.

[alexey]

But that's true of any trusted institution, isn't it? There is also junk science, and it can be very dangerous when wielded by interested parties, like oil industry-funded climate studies.

This is why I am advocating for critical thinking and evaluation of evidence.

What if the indoctrination is essential to providing to help? Alcoholics Anonymous relies on a belief in a higher power as part of their twelve-step program. What if that is an important component of beating addiction for many people?

I see indoctrination into a faith to be very different from a "there is more to life" kind of shift in perspective.

Does his mental state have to be permanent? Might he still be on a path to a full understanding of his faith? You seemed to describe his arguments about evolution as very shallow, and it seems like there may be opportunity for growth there, whether it is inside or outside of his religion.

This is a difficult question. It could be that it is necessary to take two steps back in order to rebel and take five steps forward.

I have no way of knowing whether those two steps back are necessary... but I can tell when people lie to spread confusion and ignorance.

What if the "fairy tale" is the best path towards flourishing in reality? What if it is reality?

While this is a good argument for remaining open to all possibilities, I do not see it presenting any actual evidence.

But local libraries are becoming less active, not more active. Participation in PTAs and other community organizations is generally down. In some ways, the retreat of Americans away from church services is just part of a larger trend of retreat from civic institutions in general. It may be a broader change in society rather than simply a religious vs. non-religious issue.

This is an interesting perspective. I have not seen the data indicating a retreat from civic institutions in general, but I can imagine it being the case (even though my PTA seems to be thriving and my local library is awesome).

I would not be surprised to see a void left by a decreasing role of religious institutions in an increasingly secular population, especially if the secular population is marginalized. I suppose it will take time for old institutions to adapt and new institutions to emerge.

I agree, and churches themselves should be subject to more evaluation and criticism. Although they are formed to worship God, churches are run by men, and are thus inherently flawed. Falling attendance should be an indication that they need to make some changes.

Religious groups are an important power base of the right wing coalition. There is a lot of money involved in preserving these institutions. I am not expecting any big changes as long as religion = political power.

[#BgMase76#]

I find that really sad to read. And even more disheartening for future generations.

But I'd never push my beliefs on anyone, so although I don't quite understand how faith doesn't underpin most everything in life; peoples prerogative is their own.

Hail.

I'd say I felt the same way as you about 5yrs ago. What I realised is religion has been hijacked by man. I have faith just not in man's self appreciating vision of religion. I think the saying "Practice what you preach" best sums it up. Nothing sours a person more than dealing w/ hypocrites.

[Renegade7]

I would assume that they are not counted as part of the 1/3, as they are defining themselves as Christians, which is a religious affiliation despite not being affiliated with a specific sector of Christianity.

Now that's something I'd have trouble with. I don't know if I can go along with a 1/3 of my generation being agnostic or atheist. I just don't see it.

I believe a lot of people in the USA now do believe in God and maybe even Jesus Christ, but they're not going to church every Sunday. That is starting to grow and makes more sense to me...

[#BgMase76#]

This is why I am advocating for critical thinking and evaluation of evidence.


I see indoctrination into a faith to be very different from a "there is more to life" kind of shift in perspective.


This is a difficult question. It could be that it is necessary to take two steps back in order to rebel and take five steps forward.

I have no way of knowing whether those two steps back are necessary... but I can tell when people lie to spread confusion and ignorance.



While this is a good argument for remaining open to all possibilities, I do not see it presenting any actual evidence.



This is an interesting perspective. I have not seen the data indicating a retreat from civic institutions in general, but I can imagine it being the case (even though my PTA seems to be thriving and my local library is awesome).

I would not be surprised to see a void left by a decreasing role of religious institutions in an increasingly secular population, especially if the secular population is marginalized. I suppose it will take time for old institutions to adapt and new institutions to emerge.


Religious groups are an important power base of the right wing coalition. There is a lot of money involved in preserving these institutions. I am not expecting any big changes as long as religion = political power.

The most mind boggling part is their use of faith to inspire hate. The right plays the role of keeping the faith and protecting thier religious rights from the godless heathens on the left.

[DjTj]

This is why I am advocating for critical thinking and evaluation of evidence.

I agree, and I think it should be applied both inside and outside of religion.

I see indoctrination into a faith to be very different from a "there is more to life" kind of shift in perspective.

This is a difficult question. It could be that it is necessary to take two steps back in order to rebel and take five steps forward.

I have no way of knowing whether those two steps back are necessary... but I can tell when people lie to spread confusion and ignorance.

This is a very linear way of thinking. Most problems are not solved simply by moving forward or backward. The path to the right answer may require a few steps to the left, a few steps to the right, and maybe a few circles. The theory of relativity was not the result of simply walking forward, or of stepping back and rebelling. Physicists needed many backward steps to hit a wall (Michelson-Morley), a few sideways steps (Lorentz), and then a leap forward (Einstein). I feel that personal growth also tends to take similar paths. You often don't know exactly where you're going until you find yourself there.

Religious groups are an important power base of the right wing coalition. There is a lot of money involved in preserving these institutions. I am not expecting any big changes as long as religion = political power.

I don't see this as a permanent condition. Religious zealots once had so much power that they passed a Constitutional Amendment banning alcohol, but their power eventually waned. These things go in cycles. Organized labor was the most powerful political force for decades before Reagan broke them, and they are now a secondary power in American politics. The Sierra Club and environmentalist groups have gone through multiple movements and backlashes. While the religious right feels dominant now, their time will end one day.

"All this has happened before, and all this will happen again."