TDB: Heaven is Real: A Doctor's Experience With the Afterlife

[alexey]

I believe the pfrofessor just did...you rejected what he presented because you didn't experience it yourself.

It is possible for me to have an experience which changes my brain in a way that causes me to accept professor's interpretation.

It does not matter what convictions my brain or professor's brains hold. What matters is evidence that we can present.

[thebluefood]

I think that is the fun of it, yes.... This is why I am against closing any line of inquiry. We should strive for knowledge and never believe that there are fundamentally unknowable things.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't dismiss that possibility altogether. Yes, keep asking questions. Yes, keep searching for answers. All of those things are admirable and essential for the advancement of humanity. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so arrogant as to believe that there isn't at least the possibility of something that is beyond our comprehension at work in the universe.

[alexey]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't dismiss that possibility altogether. Yes, keep asking questions. Yes, keep searching for answers. All of those things are admirable and essential for the advancement of humanity. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so arrogant as to believe that there isn't at least the possibility of something that is beyond our comprehension at work in the universe.

We should not dismiss a possibility that there are unknowable things and neither should we accept it.

[Unforgiven]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't dismiss that possibility altogether. Yes, keep asking questions. Yes, keep searching for answers. All of those things are admirable and essential for the advancement of humanity. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't be so arrogant as to believe that there isn't at least the possibility of something that is beyond our comprehension at work in the universe.

See, I agree with that. We can't prove or disprove it either way, so we leave it open. The problem is the man wrote a book titled "Proof of Heaven", to which he offers none.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It is possible for me to have an experience which changes my brain in a way that causes me to accept professor's interpretation.
It does not matter what convictions my brain or professor's brains hold. What matters is evidence that we can present which I will reject if they do not conform to my rules.

That's about right.

[PeterMP]

We should not dismiss a possibility that there are unknowable things and neither should we accept it.

What should we accept as known?

Is it known that there is a repeatable natural world?

[alexey]

That's about right.

You make it sound like I invented skepticism.

Please understand that real knowledge is an extremely precious and valuable thing. It is both precious and valuable precisely because it has standards for evidence.

---------- Post added October-11th-2012 at 01:15 PM ----------

What should we accept as known?

Is it known that there is a repeatable natural world?

One's answer to the second question depends on one's answer to the first question. Please please please let us not restart this discussion. You will not succeed in erasing the distinction between reliable knowledge and unreliable stories.

[mistertim]

Why do you believe that one is better suited based on Occam's razor and requires fewer assumptions?

What assumptions does the first require that supercede the ones inherent in the 2nd?

Well I suppose they can both be boiled down to "there is stuff we don't know" depending on how someone wants to reduce it. However, the first involves an entire re-thinking of how the universe works that is in some ways contrary to how we experience it and have tested it; an completely new backdrop or tapestry that underlies everything but we can't, or haven't been able to, experience or test for it (at least at the moment).

The second possibility I mentioned is also a "we don't know (yet)" scenario, but it involves a much less grand re-imagining of our current knowledge about the brain and how it works. The first option has a huge number of moving parts and is incredibly complex by its very nature; that is why I invoked Occam's razor.

[Kosher Ham]

I think it is wonderful that this person thinks he died and had a dream to what heaven would be like. Believe what you want and enjoy it.

My heaven is probably a lot different than most of the people who actually believe this guy went to heaven.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You make it sound like I invented skepticism.

Please understand that real knowledge is an extremely precious and valuable thing. It is both precious and valuable precisely because it has standards for evidence.

No, I just make skepticism sound as absurd as it is, remember no one lives the way skepticism suggests we should, that makes us all dullards to the skeptics until it is pointed out that skeptics don't even live byntheir own skepticism, but just insist that everyone else should.

[drtdrums]

The crucial part of the article, IMO:

"All the chief arguments against near-death experiences suggest that these experiences are the results of minimal, transient, or partial malfunctioning of the cortex. My near-death experience, however, took place not while my cortex was malfunctioning, but while it was simply off. This is clear from the severity and duration of my meningitis, and from the global cortical involvement documented by CT scans and neurological examinations. According to current medical understanding of the brain and mind, there is absolutely no way that I could have experienced even a dim and limited consciousness during my time in the coma, much less the hyper-vivid and completely coherent odyssey I underwent."

[Popeman38]

Let's just cut to the quick here. Science has, for YEARS now, been using the scientific method to disprove the existence of a higher being. Because you can't "prove" such a being exists using the scientific method. People that do this, then look down on anyone espousing religious beliefs (not all, but in generalities). Faith has been, for YEARS, trying to convince people to ignore science and accept a belief. For some of us, the scientific method is not the end all be all. Science needs to accept this. No matter how factually and coldly presented, science will not eradicate faith. For some of us, faith is not the end all be all. Faith needs to accept this. No matter how grandly and convincingly presented, faith will not eradicate science. Can we all agree on this?

Now to this thread: why do those who rely on science feel the need to "disprove" this mans book/article? Does it make you smarter? More accomplished? More respected? I'm gonna answer for you and say no to each of those. Then why enter the discussion? And why post /thread after your response, like you are THE authority on this matter?

[alexey]

No, I just make skepticism sound as absurd as it is, remember no one lives the way skepticism suggests we should, that makes us all dullards to the skeptics until it is pointed out that skeptics don't even live byntheir own skepticism, but just insist that everyone else should.

How does skepticism suggest we should live?

[SnyderShrugged]

I need to adopt the practice of staying away from any religious based thread at ES going forward. It's sad that even a mild epiphany from an avowed skeptic that made him question his own personal beliefs because yet another tired debate of the validity of religious belief.

You all have my personal vow to respect your faith. lack of faith and anything and everything in between. You cannot have a wrong belief in my mind on this subject and I honor what you see as real in your personal life's perspective.

Wish more would do the same

[alexey]

...
Now to this thread: why do those who rely on science feel the need to "disprove" this mans book/article? Does it make you smarter? More accomplished? More respected? I'm gonna answer for you and say no to each of those. Then why enter the discussion? And why post /thread after your response, like you are THE authority on this matter?

We are all in this together. We have to live together, work together, shape this world together. We are interdependent and interconnected.

When I see people believing without good reasons in things which I think are not true, I naturally feel compelled to discuss the situation. I could be making a mistake. You could be making a mistake. Let's talk about it. This is not about being smart or accomplished. This is about us trying to do the best that we can by putting our minds together.