Chalk Talk Discussion Topic: What's the issue with our defense?

[KDawg]

Let me start off by saying that I believe our defense played okay yesterday. Not great, but good enough to win a football game. But I still see a ton of holes.

First off, the Redskins are running a 3-4 defense in the mold of Dick LeBeau, the father of the zone blitz. A basic zone blitz example would be something called a "fire zone". A "fire zone" is a zone blitz with three underneath defenders and three deep defenders leaving five rushers. Generally, three of those rushers will be defensive linemen (although they could drop into coverage). Basically, the fire zone is great because you're sending five guys from all over the field. It could be anyone.

LeBeau runs his 3-4 almost like a 4-3 over or 4-3 under at times. It's a 1-gap system. And when he brings pressure, stunts and blitzes, you get a very similar look to a 4-3.

So, what's the issue with Haslett's version of the 3-4? Well, for one the loss of Lou Spanos to UCLA didn't help.

But in my opinion it has less to do with pressure on the quarterback and more to do with problems getting to coverage responsbilities and poor play calls from the coordinator.

Here's why:

With zone blitzes (or any blitz including man variations) you are bringing people from all over the field. That means every player has to be assignment oriented. In man, it leaves players on an island, one on one with a receiver. In zone, it means some players have to come from a difficult presnap alignment to their zone drop spots (I say that for simplicities sake. Most team will probably match-up zone if they zone blitz).

I think the most glaring issue with Haslett's defense has been the lack of coverage on the backend, and not so much the rush. From the snap of the ball, it seems like there's an open receiver. I don't care how good your actual pressure package is, if you can't cover on the back end for at least a couple seconds you're completely DOA.

My assessment is, that despite my obvious disdain for Coach Haslett, I think we could be more successful with more talent in the coverage department. Where I fault Haslett, though, is the timing of some of his calls. It's difficult to cover the area 5-10 yards deep out by the numbers when you're bringing pressure and expecting a backer to get out to that spot. But I think our coverage personnel is either extremely raw in some cases, or not quite good enough.

I like the way he's utilizing Hall as a blitzer, but I'm not a fan of the use of other personnel. Hall excels playing up and sticking his nose in the play. I think he'd be a great roving safety for us, in the mold of Charles Woodson. But in order to use him in that role, we need to find a corner that can play as well as Hall does. And Hall gets dogged on quite often by this fan base, but I have yet to see a replacement. (Now, that's not to say that a Crawford or Minnifield aren't that guy, but they aren't quite there yet).

What are your thoughts?

[Forehead]

I almost feel embarassed attempting to contribute to this thread, since I'm not a football coach and only occasionally play Madden, but I think the blitz is relatively ineffective and our secondary is exposed for too long.

The Madden part...I play a 4-3 defense for the most part and generally run some form of blitz, whether it's bringing both OLB's around the edge, or through the T/G gaps, or dropping the linebackers but sending the slot CB. The Fire Zone as I understand it in the game generally rushes the 4 down linemen, plus the MLB and one of the OLB's while the other OLB drops back. It places the CB's on an island but what I generally notice in the game is that if the computer doesn't get rid of the ball immediately (or hand off) he's getting creamed.

The only reason I bring this up (besides Madden being my basis of understanding for blitz types) is that you say it's the lack of coverage on the backend and not the rush. The Atlanta game is still burned in my brain, it felt like every time we sent a backer or two, they ran into a stone wall, like the Atlanta O-Line had mortar in between each brick of an O-lineman. Nothing got through. When you have a decent cover corner (Wilson) and another corner who makes big plays but gets burned on any hint of a double move (Hall) that just doesn't work. Whoever is the extra man (men) being sent needs to get through with more consistency, or we need to blitz less often and use our backers in coverage.

[Hitman21ST]

I generally agree with you KD, I do have to add though that the D steps up against the better offenses they play.

Stats be damned, they played a hell of a game against the Saints and Falcons. Against those teams, they always seem to get one or two critical stops and at least one timely turnover. We have 8 INTs and 12 sacks - neither lead the NFL, but they come at the right time.

The issue though is injuries and lack of quality depth. Orakpo being out hurts us, as does not having Meriweather (theoretically). Jackson is a decent backup, but he's not a full-time starter by any stretch of the imagination.

[darrelgreenie]

LeBeau runs his 3-4 almost like a 4-3 over or 4-3 under at times. It's a 1-gap system. And when he brings pressure, stunts and blitzes, you get a very similar look to a 4-3.

LeBeau does use some 1-gap stuff, but I think he's considered more of a hybrid coach, if not 2-gap.

I like the way he's utilizing Hall as a blitzer, but I'm not a fan of the use of other personnel. Hall excels playing up and sticking his nose in the play. I think he'd be a great roving safety for us, in the mold of Charles Woodson. But in order to use him in that role, we need to find a corner that can play as well as Hall does. And Hall gets dogged on quite often by this fan base, but I have yet to see a replacement. (Now, that's not to say that a Crawford or Minnifield aren't that guy, but they aren't quite there yet).

What are your thoughts?

I agree the front 7 isn't the "problem".

The back end has problems in talent, scheme and scheme discipline/coaching.

If there is something to take from Wade maybe its fewer coverages?
His teams typically keep it simple and run a Cover 4 & Cover 8 and of course man.

Maybe there are simply too many hands in the soup? Trying to do too many things and not mastering anything yet?

The staff has 3 guys that cut their teeth in the secondary, its ironic that our secondary is our weakest unit.

Here are my thoughts from the Rams game:

Initial thoughts:

o I guess Wilson didn't get a re-route or bump on #11

o Riley doesn't need to react so hard or at all to Jackson b/c Wilson has the flat
I wonder if they're coached to switch from spot drop to match-up zone b/c at some point Riley needs to react to the receiver sitting in his zone or at least get in the passing window

o Play Cover-2 zone takes a ton of reps to get it right, it doesn't seem to lend itself well to dabbling

In the end I would pick fewer coverages and rep them ad nausem.
Everyone must RE-ROUTE!!!!
I would play more man both 2-man and 1 man and mix up who get's doubled.

[KDawg]

I almost feel embarassed attempting to contribute to this thread, since I'm not a football coach and only occasionally play Madden, but I think the blitz is relatively ineffective and our secondary is exposed for too long.

You don't have to be a coach to have a well formulated opinion that makes sense. Thanks for the addition.

The only reason I bring this up (besides Madden being my basis of understanding for blitz types) is that you say it's the lack of coverage on the backend and not the rush. The Atlanta game is still burned in my brain, it felt like every time we sent a backer or two, they ran into a stone wall, like the Atlanta O-Line had mortar in between each brick of an O-lineman.

Atlanta's line did a phenomenal job of picking up the blitz. I think they have a fantastic line. Their personnel on offense is better than our defensive personnel as a whole, in my opinion. Especially with Carriker and Rak out.

Nothing got through. When you have a decent cover corner (Wilson) and another corner who makes big plays but gets burned on any hint of a double move (Hall) that just doesn't work. Whoever is the extra man (men) being sent needs to get through with more consistency, or we need to blitz less often and use our backers in coverage.

It's really a combination due to identity crisis. We can't rush three or four because our defensive line is really run stuffers. I like Bowen as a pass rusher, but the rest of the DL is pretty much very good and one-gapping and playing the run and not so great at pass rushing, especially with Carriker out. So we need to bring pressure from other places. The issue there is that our coverage isn't very good. We need to upgrade personnel at ILB (for coverage) and secondary (for coverage) or on the defensive line for pass rush. You can't have poor coverage from your coverage unit and expect the blitz to work all that well. And you can't have run stuffers on your DL and expect a 3 or 4 man package to work well.

That said, the loss of Carriker and Orakpo is really exposing our lack of pass rush without the blitz.

I generally agree with you KD, I do have to add though that the D steps up against the better offenses they play.

That shouldn't be something that is looked at as being okay, though. We put ourselves in bad situations with teams we "should" beat because they play down. If we can stop a good offense (I use the term "stop" very loosely, seeing how we've allowed WAY too many points this year) we should be able to maul a bad offense. But we don't.

Stats be damned, they played a hell of a game against the Saints and Falcons. Against those teams, they always seem to get one or two critical stops and at least one timely turnover. We have 8 INTs and 12 sacks - neither lead the NFL, but they come at the right time.

Haslett is very good at forcing turnovers. But I don't think he utilizes personnel properly. Or picks it well enough.

The issue though is injuries and lack of quality depth.

That is without a doubt a big part of it.

[Forehead]

Hitman has a point, I can't believe our turnover differential is +9 right now. When have we ever managed that? It feels like we epitomize the bend-but-don't-break style, even though Haslett isn't trying to play that way, and we break far too often. But we randomly get incredible defensive plays which mask our greater problems. I mean really, five defensive touchdowns? We can't reasonable expect that to continue, and being on pace for 32 sacks for the season isn't enough.

[Chump Bailey]

I'm just glad that Lorenzo Alexander is getting some much deserved time out there.

[authentic]

I'm just glad that Lorenzo Alexander is getting some much deserved time out there.

he certainly has a knack for making plays. he's a very smart player, which masks his lack of athleticism. It would be interesting to see if they allow him to start next week, he also seems to know how to shed blocks, which is what we need desperately!

[darrelgreenie]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d...-wade-phillips

[HailToTheRedskins14]

I'm a Haslett defender, so I'll add a bit here. I won't say the D has been great or even good this year. They've struggled, no doubt, even with Orakpo and Carriker. But people don't give credit to the run defense. We're ranked #11 in rush D. Now I know, "Why run when you can throw for 300 yards?", but #11 is #11. As for our pass D, the only game I have a problem with is St. Louis. Amendola (sp) shouldn't put up those numbers on anybody. Other than that, we've played Drew "Most Consecutive Games with a Passing TD" Brees, Matt "I have the most weapons of any QB in the league" Ryan, and Andy "Lob it up to AJ" Dalton. Those are some pretty good passing attacks, and tough matchups for anybody.

If we want to talk about yesterday, they did their job for over 3 quarters. I thought it was obvious they went into the prevent D and let them move the ball and chew clock. The majority of teams in the NFL will do the same thing. Kinda got a bit too close for comfort, but that's a pretty standard decision teams make.

I can't argue specifics too much, but I think the D will improve over the year. We've seen them play really well at times under Haslett. Arizona's defense last year is kinda what I'm hoping for. They went stone-cold late in the year and have continued it to this year. I think we can turn the corner.

[MattFancy]

I generally agree with you KD, I do have to add though that the D steps up against the better offenses they play.

Stats be damned, they played a hell of a game against the Saints and Falcons. Against those teams, they always seem to get one or two critical stops and at least one timely turnover. We have 8 INTs and 12 sacks - neither lead the NFL, but they come at the right time.

The issue though is injuries and lack of quality depth. Orakpo being out hurts us, as does not having Meriweather (theoretically). Jackson is a decent backup, but he's not a full-time starter by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree that I think overall depth is playing more a part in it this year. Our safeties weren't going to be anything special this year to begin with. Now with not having Merriweather, they certainly haven't played that great.

Our lack of pass rush without Orakpo and Carriker is hurting us, but yesterday we did seem to be able to put pressure on Ponder.

[Hitman21ST]

That shouldn't be something that is looked at as being okay, though. We put ourselves in bad situations with teams we "should" beat because they play down. If we can stop a good offense (I use the term "stop" very loosely, seeing how we've allowed WAY too many points this year) we should be able to maul a bad offense. But we don't.

That I completely agree with. We play to the level of our competition, which as a fan (and watching it unravel as a coach) is entirely too frustrating. If our D played the Rams and Bengals the way we played the Falcons, we would be 5-1 right now.

Haslett is very good at forcing turnovers. But I don't think he utilizes personnel properly. Or picks it well enough.

I agree with that also. No team in the NFL has the perfect personnel in every position. Every team has holes, but the best ones mask their holes with the other positions. Haz needs to do a much better job at doing that. Getting Meriwearther back should help out a good amount.

I think we'll see an improvement though out of our defense in the upcoming weeks. We've adjusted as much as we can to the loss of Rak and Carriker, and our secondary is beginning to jel. Now that Haz knows what the current D can (and can't) do, we should see more consistent play from them.

[KDawg]

But people don't give credit to the run defense. We're ranked #11 in rush D. Now I know, "Why run when you can throw for 300 yards?", but #11 is #11.

You 100% just destroyed your own point here. Peterson had 17 carries for 79 yards for a 4.6 yard per carry average. They didn't run because 1) we were playing with a lead and 2) our pass defense is putrid. They didn't need to run.

Our rush defense has had the 4th least attempts on it in the NFL. We lead the league in passes attempted against us.

We are allowing 3.9 ypc, which is good. But it's clear that teams are more than happy to pass on our weak secondary.

As for our pass D, the only game I have a problem with is St. Louis. Amendola (sp) shouldn't put up those numbers on anybody. Other than that, we've played Drew "Most Consecutive Games with a Passing TD" Brees, Matt "I have the most weapons of any QB in the league" Ryan, and Andy "Lob it up to AJ" Dalton. Those are some pretty good passing attacks, and tough matchups for anybody.

We've allowed 326, 301, 385, 293, 338, 327 yards passing in each of our games this year. That's ONE game under 300 yards. We're allowing 7.3 yards per attempt on passes. That is unacceptable. I don't care who you play. And a lot of those yards were to open receivers. Not spectacular throws and catches, but a total lack of coverage.

[SlobberKnockinFootball]

I don't know enough about X's and O's to tell you what is working and what is not. But from my standpoint.. the 3-4 defense is predicated on pressure. If you can't do it with the front 7 then IMO Haslett is going to have to get creative with the blitz packages to fool the O-line. Too many times have I seen the Skins send 6 maybe 7 guys and get ate up by the O-line. Common sense says if you send more than they have, then you should get to the QB one way or another. Pressure makes any CB/S look better than they are... as you saw from the sail job by Ponder and Williams was just sitting right there waiting for the ball to drop out of the sky. Williams did nothing special on that play, he didn't snatch it from the WR, he just was a recipient of a little pressure by the Skins.

I think that's where it all starts IMO. When the Steelers and Ravens were going good in this defense it looked like a pack of wild dogs coming at you.. you didn't know which way they were coming from with all the moving around etc. I believe the first game of the season the D resembled that mantra... they were all over the place moving around etc confusing the Saints O-line.

So what do I think the solution is? I think it's simple.. A legit NT to crush the front end of the pocket... as you can see when we do bring edge pressure we have 2 running lanes that always develop for the QB to squirt out of.. the reason for those lanes is the NT is just getting ate up at the hike of the ball. I love Cofield.. but they need to find a Ngata or Raji for that spot.

Btw, i know the secondary doesn't have a lot of talent, but my point is pressure makes players look better than what they are. There is an obvious deficiency in the secondary... Who knows, maybe Merriweather and Jackson would of been a lot better than what we are getting now. But we will never know at this year.

[KDawg]

I don't know enough about X's and O's to tell you what is working and what is not. But from my standpoint.. the 3-4 defense is predicated on pressure. If you can't do it with the front 7 then IMO Haslett is going to have to get creative with the blitz packages to fool the O-line.

The 3-4 is predicated on pressure from anywhere, not just the front seven. His whole defense is predicated on pressure coming from all over the field. Remember Gomes and Hall coming on blitzes? That's a part of his scheme. I just don't like how/when he does it.

Pressure makes any CB/S look better than they are... as you saw from the sail job by Ponder and Williams was just sitting right there waiting for the ball to drop out of the sky. Williams did nothing special on that play, he didn't snatch it from the WR, he just was a recipient of a little pressure by the Skins.

Vice versa, good coverage makes pressure look better. If the QB can literally drop and let one sail to a wide open receiver on one step, the coverage did something completely wrong and/or the coverage called was suspect. You gotta have the underneath stuff covered up when you blitz because that's going to be the quarterback's hot read.

I love Cofield.. but they need to find a Ngata or Raji for that spot.

This is easier said than done, but that would be great