HTTR24-7:Coordinated Chaos- Mike Shanahans History With Defensive Coordinators

[Lavarleap56]

If its Raheem interesting thing about it is its his unit that's being torched -- granted he's working with bad talent but the secondary was better last year. wonder about Ron Rivera if he's fired. Carolina's defense is decent.

Honestly I'm not even sold on Raheem taking over myself. I would prefer a guy with a heavy backround in a 3-4. To be fair the secondary and defensive issues began last season and have really carried over into 2012. Can Raheem do better, yes of course but do I lay the blame at his feet, no.

If Raheem does take over we have to hope he is as smart as everyone says he is and he picked up the philosophy quickly.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 05:43 PM ----------

You know how to find them as easily as I can so I won't link them...

I was looking at the drive stats on FO yesterday. Our defense ranks about fifth in takeaways, fumbles caused and interceptions per drive but like 29th on yards and points. This indicates over-aggressiveness which could come from Shanahan's orders being followed by Haslett. The best explanation is that he defense is getting burned on blitzes too often.

If you go back and watch the games you will see a majority of the turnovers are more luck of the draw vs anything the scheme aided. Caused Fumbles the defense was pretty good at forcing early in the year and that's a plus. Interceptions have been off just bad throws from Qbs feeling no pressure, Jackson vs Cincinnati and Gomes in NO excluded.

Regardless of how the state and turnover is a plus. The issue is how sustainable are they based off not being pressure forced.

[Oldfan]

...Yes I did bring up points as well.. Isn't the defenses goal to limit the amount of points a opponent the scores? Don't we judge defenses on YPG, PPG, Sacks, Turnovers..

Those stats are misleading. Greg Blache's unit looked good on the points rankings because his unit played bend but don't break which allows the opponent to play ball control and keep our offense off the field

Meanwhile, Zorn was playing ball control which helped the defense hold the points down. The result was low scoring games with our defense working against the offense.

[Lavarleap56]

There can't be very many fourth down conversions. I don't know how a team can be doing well at ball control and be 29th in third-down conversions.

The offense picks up a lot of firsts know 1st & 2nd..Think we are at 12/12 on 4th down conversions or something close. I wasn't trying to label the skins as ball control but you can see the game plan is to keep their defense off the field as much as possible.

[Oldfan]

The offense picks up a lot of firsts know 1st & 2nd..Think we are at 12/12 on 4th down conversions or something close. I wasn't trying to label the skins as ball control but you can see the game plan is to keep their defense off the field as much as possible.

The opening drive against the Giants...19 plays...short passes mixed with runs... I thought,"Wow! This team actually CAN play ball control! Other than that, I haven't really noticed it.

[DC9]

The offense picks up a lot of firsts know 1st & 2nd..Think we are at 12/12 on 4th down conversions or something close. I wasn't trying to label the skins as ball control but you can see the game plan is to keep their defense off the field as much as possible.

I believe we are 7 for 8 or 8 for 9. Either way we missed the last one in the Pittsburgh game.
We've been very good on 4th down this year.

---------- Post added November-2nd-2012 at 02:08 PM ----------

The opening drive against the Giants...19 plays...short passes mixed with runs... I thought,"Wow! This team actually CAN play ball control! Other than that, I haven't really noticed it.

Didn't that drive start on the 5 or so? You have to have the field to do it OF.

One thing that Robert does very well, is he uses the clock throughout the game better than any QB we've had here since I've been alive. He always gets the team to the line with about 10-15 seconds left and always gets the snap off with 5 or less left.

[GWinSkins83]

On last weeks’ game against the Pittsburgh Steelers:

Haslett- “Well, obviously we weren’t pleased with the way we played and the outcome. That’s something we’ll deal with every week.”

Good to know that they wont be pleased with how they play and the outcome of every game for the rest of the year.... Hate that quote

Get him out LL I know you got the "Juice" to get it done. This sucka has waved the white flag.

[Lavarleap56]

Those stats are misleading. Greg Blache's unit looked good on the points rankings because his unit played bend but don't break which allows the opponent to play ball control and keep our offense off the field

Meanwhile, Zorn was playing ball control which helped the defense hold the points down. The result was low scoring games with our defense working against the offense.

I am very familiar with Blaches defense. I would like to know how all the basic defensive stats are misleading? And If they are misleading then why did the coaches in the OP get fired when their PPG and YPG climbed?

I'm a fan of advanced stats but some carry more weight with me than others.

[Oldfan]

I am very familiar with Blaches defense. I would like to know how all the basic defensive stats are misleading? And If they are misleading then why did the coaches in the OP get fired when their PPG and YPG climbed?

If your assumption is correct -- if those coaches got fired because their stats climbed -- then it's because the person doing the firing didn't understand how those stats can be misleading.

If you coach defense with an eye on a higher ranking on the points stat, you will pick strategy A. If you coach with an eye on helping your team win games, you will select a different strategy.

You can raise your ranking on the points against stat by a strategy that lowers the score for BOTH teams. That's what Blache's unit did. That doesn't help your team win.

[Bishop Hammer]

If Raheem Morris really is the next in line for the DC job, it makes sense to me to make the change after the game this weekend. That would allow 2 weeks for players to get used to it. Plus, it would give him a jumpstart on next year. Also, if he totally bombs out, the door is still open to bring in someone else this coming offseason.

If he's not, then let Haslett finish out the year and move on.

I don't think Morris is the answer either. His defenses werent barn burners while he was in Tampa. And the secondary, his part of the defense, is the worst unit. Somehow, I feel giving him more control over the enitre D wouldn't be an improvement.

[Lavarleap56]

If your assumption is correct -- if those coaches got fired because their stats climbed -- then it's because the person doing the firing didn't understand how those stats can be misleading.

If you coach defense with an eye on a higher ranking on the points stat, you will pick strategy A. If you coach with an eye on helping your team win games, you will select a different strategy.

You can raise your ranking on the points against stat by a strategy that lowers the score for BOTH teams. That's what Blache's unit did. That doesn't help your team win.

Every defense sets out to limit PPG, YPG, and force turnovers.. These are not misleading they are the baseline to how a defense is measured. Any strategy that was not concerned with PPG allowed is a flawed one.

And here is our defenses philosophy on PPG ,Yardage,Turnovers ect...

[darrelgreenie]

I would love to see a different DC, but I don't think Haslett is the 'problem' per se. Like many coaches I think he's good enough to win given enough talent.
I think the current problem on defense stems from the lack of talent due to injury, lack of depth exposed by injury, FA penalty and the offseason prioritization and the failure to find a disruptive DL through draft or FA (which imo is a by product of our GM/player acquisition).

[Oldfan]

Every defense sets out to limit PPG, YPG, and force turnovers.. These are not misleading they are the baseline to how a defense is measured. Any strategy that was not concerned with PPG allowed is a flawed one.

And here is our defenses philosophy on PPG ,Yardage,Turnovers ect...

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/...ef7c851697.jpg

I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that every defense isn't coached that way because Bill Bellichik and Jim Schwartz understand statistics. They both majored in Economics. Schwartz has been quoted on Football Outsiders about the deceptive nature of the NFL's yardage stats.

Your best strategy for leading the NFL in the lowest PPG and your best strategy for leading the league in lowest YPG would be in direct conflict.

Your best strategy for leading the league in takeaways would cause you to be over-agressive. Good offenses burn over-aggressive defenses. You would be giving your opponent a better opportunity to come from behind and beat you.

If our defense is being coached that way, we have discovered part of the problem.

[darrelgreenie]

I guess finding another OC would be the best way to find a new DL coach and LBs coach.
I think those 2 coaches aren't holding up their end. Then again I don't know how much autonomy Haslett gives them. But to my eye Slowick's LBs aren't good in zone coverage drops or recognition, they don't mix it up shuffle positions and rarely overload. Jacobs's DL is very static but lacks the individual talent to make an impact without the help of scheme: stunting, slanting, shooting gaps

[NLC1054]

I would love to see a different DC, but I don't think Haslett is the 'problem' per se. Like many coaches I think he's good enough to win given enough talent.

I think every coach would love to have a unit filled with nothing but Pro Bowl talent that stayed healthy for an entire season. The fact is, most defenses are lucky to have one elite defensive player, much less several in every level of the defense.

Like most teams, defenses are usually composed of guys; not guys who are going to make the Pro Bowl, not guys who dominate, not All Pro's. Just guys. Losing Rak and Carriker hurts, and we could all said here all day and talk about what might've been if we had taken J.J Watt instead of Ryan Kerrigan. The fact is, this is the hand that we've been dealt; we're dealing with some crappy injuries, but ever football team deals with crappy injuries. The good teams and good coaches overcome. They find a way to make it work.

Haslett has simply thrown up his hands. It's the only way to explain how he calls this defense. Clearly, the strength of this team is not coverage. Clearly, without Rak and Carriker, the pass rush from the d-line is not what it used to be.

So you have a defensive secondary who has trouble in coverage, and a d-line that's struggling with the pass rush. So what defense do you call?

Because Haslett has taken two negatives on our team, and he's decided the best way to deal with the problem is to magnify them by forcing a d-line that has trouble rushing the passer to do it by themselves while we drop a secondary (and linebackers for that matter) who struggle to cover into coverage for 5-10 seconds. I am sorry, blame it on the talent if ya want, but if everything in this defense was the same except we had J.J Watt or insert-name-of-pass-rushing-defensive lineman here---and it doesn't seem to matter to anyone that in a 3-4, the d-line is not supposed to be the primary source of pass rush, unless you're playing the Wade Phillips one gap style---it'd still be a recipe for disaster.

Complain about the talent if you'd like, but this scheme isn't being used to the best of it's ability. The talent is always going to fail when the coach makes the conscious decision to highlight it's negatives because he's too terrified of getting beat. Kyle Shanahan may be a huge ****ing bonehead for that pass to Robert Griffin III, but at least he had the balls to try it. I'll take failing with balls over calls with not guts any day.

[darrelgreenie]

I think every coach would love to have a unit filled with nothing but Pro Bowl talent that stayed healthy for an entire season.

Your response to my post begin with a strawman which you proceed to respond to as if that was my point.