Repetition, Repetiton, Repetition...

[darrelgreenie]

If they are running a very simple offense and you add a component where you don't disguise it much -- won't it be easy to stop, especially with a receiving crew that poses no threat?

Simple/disguise used in this context is to generic for me to understand and I've seen far to often ambiguity over terms derail a conversation. But, if by don't disguise you mean fewer formations then no I don't think the disguise or lack there of makes the offense easier to stop. Its about execution. And running the bulk of an offense from the formations adds a level of disguise in itself. That's part of the reason this offense's boot stretch/swap series of plays is successful they're run from the same formations and all have the same initial action.

Smart football did a breakdown of Tom Moore/Peyton Manning offense and had very few formations and plays. I'll post it later if i get a chance.

[Oldfan]

...Smart football did a breakdown of Tom Moore/Peyton Manning offense and had very few formations and plays. I'll post it later if i get a chance.

I've been talking about Indy's smaller playbook for a couple of years. I didn't realize that this article was online, DG. Here's a quote:

“I can give the playbook,” [said former Colts backup quarterback, Jim] Sorgi. “There is not that many teams they’re going to play who don’t know what they’re going to do. It’s all about execution. Their coaches are like, ‘We’ll tell the other team what we’re doing. They got to stop us.’ That’s what they do. That’s what they’re all about. And not many teams have been able to stop them yet.”

http://smartfootball.com/offense/pey...-colts-offense

[darrelgreenie]

The Colts’ offense was, structurally at least, among the simplest in the league for the entire time Manning was there. They used only a handful of formations — and almost always lined up Marvin Harrison (and later Pierre Garçon) split wide to the right and Reggie Wayne split wide to the left — ten or so core pass plays and just a couple of core runs. I know that sounds a little silly, especially since we’re constantly told that NFL playbooks are incredibly dense and huge and so on, but the Colts killed people with like fifteen, maybe twenty plays, and they did it for a decade.

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthre...63#post9254763

[KDawg]

SIP brought up a good point. Multiple formations to run the same plays. Weigh the advantages v. disadvantages for us.

To keep things simple for the receivers, I would not add that in the pro game, but lots of very good coaches do.

I'm not sure I agree here, Oldfan. But I could be misinterpreting what you're saying.

In the pro game, we should absolutely be able to run plays out of multiple formations. Formations shouldn't be difficult to pick up on. And running plays out of different formations is as simple as knowing what routes are run by what receiver on a general basis.

Let's look at a drive concept. (The flanker drive is the play that Jerry Rice made a living on). The outter most receiver runs the drive (which is a drag) towards the middle of the field. The number two receiver, in Rice and the 49ers case, was generally the Y. The second receiver will run a 10-12 yard "In" route.

When you know that the outter most receiver runs the drive and the second receiver runs a deep in, you can run this concept from any formation.

If I have a two receiver set, I can add a motion for the slot receiver into the LOS and at the snap they run the deep in and the X receiver can run the drive concept.

Additionally, Mike Shanahan is a WCO coach. And West Coast Offensive coordinators like to tell their receivers what routes their running on each play. A typical play call in a WCO would be something like this:

[Formation] [Strength of Formation][routes]

So: "I Weak Right X Fly Y Clobber Z Curl Fullback Swing"

Some teams like to include protections in the play call as well. Some like to call the protection at the LOS if they have a smart enough center/quarterback duo.

The issue is getting guys with FBI (football intelligence). Sometimes teams look for athletes because there are plenty of guys on a team that are smart, and that's the coaching staff. The coaches could mentally go on the field and play with the best of them. But physically they aren't there. So it's there job to make sure players know. And it's their job to know how to coach them, whether it's through auditory, visual or tactile presentation, their players have to have the information relayed to them appropriately. But you need to know your players and how to operate.

[Rodriggo]

I think simplifying the scheme is a great idea at all levels.

Could not agree more. Making things simpler makes even more sense when RG3 can extend any play and turn a bad play good.

Of all the possible plays on a third down call why are they running an option play to Brandon Banks? Get out of your own ******* head Kyle!

Why not run the hurry up, line up in Pistol and let RG3 read the defense EVERY down? How does a defense stop this?

I see this team being the poor man's greatest show on turf if they can get Garcon healthy, add another solid receiver and two solid or one superstar OL.

Haslett has more than enough talent to field a middle of the road defense, he's coached himself out of a job this year.

[Oldfan]

I'm not sure I agree here, Oldfan. But I could be misinterpreting what you're saying.

In the pro game, we should absolutely be able to run plays out of multiple formations. Formations shouldn't be difficult to pick up on. And running plays out of different formations is as simple as knowing what routes are run by what receiver on a general basis.

My fault. I didn't make my question clear. Your reply didn't cover what I had in mind but was interesting nevertheless.

What I was thinking about was eliminating the penalties for illegal formation caused more frequently when a team uses multiple formations to run the same group of plays. Are those multiple formations effective enough in disguising the plays to warrant their use? I had in mind a brief cost/benefit reply.

---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 09:17 AM ----------

Could not agree more. Making things simpler makes even more sense when RG3 can extend any play and turn a bad play good....

Exactly. How could the defense game plan for what RG3 is going to do when he doesn't know what he's going to do?

[KDawg]

My fault. I didn't make my question clear. Your reply didn't cover what I had in mind but was interesting nevertheless.

What I was thinking about was eliminating the penalties for illegal formation caused more frequently when a team uses multiple formations to run the same group of plays. Are those multiple formations effective enough in disguising the plays to warrant their use? I had in mind a brief cost/benefit reply.

Okay, that makes sense to me. Absolutely there should be a cost/benefit ratio weighed, and I believe right now we are doing too much. I think that speaks to our FBI and our level of coaching. Not necessarily the part about relaying information. That may or may not be operating sufficiently. The part I'm concerned with is if that information is being relayed by our position coaches effectively, that's a personnel issue. They either can't do it or they aren't smart enough to grasp it, which falls on Mike Shanahan's shoulders. If the information isn't being relayed effectively, that's a coaching issue. That falls on the position coach, which ultimately falls on Mike Shanahan.

Being the head coach is a *****.

[daveakl]

In the 2010 preseason, Kyle was talking about installing 150 plays. Since the ZBS run game only requires six or seven, I assumed that the rest were pass plays.

Why do you think our receivers are false starting so much?

I would imagine the 150 play comment was over the course of a season. Each week most teams add 5-10 new plays designed specifically for that weeks opponent.

as to why they are false starting / lining up wrong I stated:
"I can't speak much for the defense, but for the offense, check the stats on rookie QB's and how many false starts / illegal formation penalties they have. Watch vet QB's (esp the good ones) move their players into the proper places before the snap. Now watch for RGIII to do it. I think that will come for him, he's a smart kid. But right now you have Hankerson, Paulsen, Morgan, Morris, Robinson, Moss, and RGIII all playing in a new offense (or at least new to them in many regards from what they ran last year and they are still learning it. Frustrating to watch for sure, but when it clicks you can see how potent it will be. "

[MusicCitySkin]

When a severe lack of talent on offense prevents you from being a big play offense, the chance of a drive killing penalty increases with every additional play. I saw it several times last week. The team would be consistently moving down the field getting first downs, then BAM, 10 yard holding penalty, and the drive is killed, or the red zone opportunity is killed.

[Oldfan]

I would imagine the 150 play comment was over the course of a season. Each week most teams add 5-10 new plays designed specifically for that weeks opponent.

The comment was made about installing those plays in the preseason. As I recall the decision was to throw them at the players as quickly as possible and then go back and repeat what they couldn't absorb.

as to why they are false starting / lining up wrong I stated:
"I can't speak much for the defense, but for the offense, check the stats on rookie QB's and how many false starts / illegal formation penalties they have. Watch vet QB's (esp the good ones) move their players into the proper places before the snap. Now watch for RGIII to do it. I think that will come for him, he's a smart kid. But right now you have Hankerson, Paulsen, Morgan, Morris, Robinson, Moss, and RGIII all playing in a new offense (or at least new to them in many regards from what they ran last year and they are still learning it. Frustrating to watch for sure, but when it clicks you can see how potent it will be.

I can see how veteran QBs might move a player to the right position, but I don't see how he could prevent false starts.

---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 09:34 AM ----------

When a severe lack of talent on offense prevents you from being a big play offense, the chance of a drive killing penalty increases with every additional play. I saw it several times last week. The team would be consistently moving down the field getting first downs, then BAM, 10 yard holding penalty, and the drive is killed, or the red zone opportunity is killed.

I saw the same thing -- which prompted this thread.

---------- Post added November-6th-2012 at 09:37 AM ----------

Okay, that makes sense to me. Absolutely there should be a cost/benefit ratio weighed, and I believe right now we are doing too much. I think that speaks to our FBI and our level of coaching. Not necessarily the part about relaying information. That may or may not be operating sufficiently. The part I'm concerned with is if that information is being relayed by our position coaches effectively, that's a personnel issue. They either can't do it or they aren't smart enough to grasp it, which falls on Mike Shanahan's shoulders. If the information isn't being relayed effectively, that's a coaching issue. That falls on the position coach, which ultimately falls on Mike Shanahan.

Being the head coach is a *****.

My guess is that they aren't smart enough. I think ordinary intelligence is an underrated factor in grading players.

[Voice_of_Reason]

In the 2010 preseason, Kyle was talking about installing 150 plays. Since the ZBS run game only requires six or seven, I assumed that the rest were pass plays.

Why do you think our receivers are false starting so much?

Because they are not paying attention.

Sorry, this is just a silly argument. This reads like fishing for just another reason to bash Kyle. With so many legitimate ones, why anybody has to manufacture one is beyond me.

The WRs are professionals, they should be able to look at the damn ball and react when it is snapped. I have some sympathy for the OL on the road, but never for WRs. And I don't care how many plays the playbook has. You're coached this since pop warner: If you're outside, don't move until the ball moves.

Nobody will ever know for sure, but I'm going to think it has a lot more to do with lack of discipline, lack of concentration than "thinking" about their route. If that's actually the case, then they all need to be released, because they don't fit the basic requirements of an NFL WR. I'm not even really willing to admit that this could be bad WR coaching. This is so fundamental. It should never happen to a professional WR. Ever. No matter what. Under any circumstance.

At some point, the player has to be responsible. This is one of those situations.

And for 150 plays, I have no problem with asking a group of people making 300k at the minimum to learn 150 pass plays. It's their FREAKING JOB. It's the only thing they have to do. If their job requirement was to memorize and recite back, verbatim, the first 150 pages of Harry Potter, and that is all they had to do, all day, all night, then that's what I would expect them to be able to do.

[Oldfan]

Because they are not paying attention.

If we were talking about one player that explanation would make sense. But, when the group is having a problem, it doesn't.

And for 150 plays, I have no problem with asking a group of people making 300k at the minimum to learn 150 pass plays.

My point is not about whether the request is reasonable. It's about whether asking them to learn 150 is intelligent.

Read my Post 17 in which I linked an article about the Colts scheme with Peyton -- the smallest playbook in the NFL.

[KDawg]

Read my Post 17 in which I linked an article about the Colts scheme with Peyton -- the smallest playbook in the NFL.

When you have Peyton Manning who can read things coming from a defense even when they are sugaring it, you can afford to have a limited playbook because he'll call the play that attacks the openings. Rodney Harrison said on NBC a few weeks ago that the only quarterback he's ever faced that kept him up at night was Manning. He said he'd be on a blitz and not showing it at all and Manning would point him out and alert the OL that a blitz was coming from Harrison.

Harrison said they only had success because they had a bunch of veterans and could audible out of the play in an instant and even then they didn't make the right decision all the time.

Peyton Manning is a luxury that very few teams have ever had.

[Oldfan]

When you have Peyton Manning who can read things coming from a defense even when they are sugaring it, you can afford to have a limited playbook because he'll call the play that attacks the openings. Rodney Harrison said on NBC a few weeks ago that the only quarterback he's ever faced that kept him up at night was Manning. He said he'd be on a blitz and not showing it at all and Manning would point him out and alert the OL that a blitz was coming from Harrison.

Harrison said they only had success because they had a bunch of veterans and could audible out of the play in an instant and even then they didn't make the right decision all the time.

Peyton Manning is a luxury that very few teams have ever had.

Peyton certainly advanced the state of the art in the way QBs prepare. But, he didn't do anything that other intelligent QBs couldn't be taught to do. That small scheme had to have been put together with plays that fit together like a Swiss watch. If the defense does this, we do that... That's the kind of thing I meant by keeping the complexity under the hood.

[KDawg]

Peyton certainly advanced the state of the art in the way QBs prepare. But, he didn't do anything that other intelligent QBs couldn't be taught to do. That small scheme had to have been put together with plays that fit together like a Swiss watch. If the defense does this, we do that... That's the kind of thing I meant by keeping the complexity under the hood.

And while I believe that ideally, in a utopia, you're 100% correct. I think you're underestimating the difficulty in getting a guy to be as observant and prepared as Peyton Manning. Manning's football IQ is off the charts to begin with.

Putting it in another way, if it were that easy to do, everyone would be doing it.