Fox NFL Sunday via Jay Glazer: Dan Snyder not Happy with Coach Shanahan's Comments After Carolina Game.

[RedskinParadigm]

I agree. See Dom Capers for those resutls (using the same Packers model).

I'm a bit torn on Shanny right now. I agree that he had a monumental task to turn the roster over. He had next to nothing in the cupboard and an unfair FA class the first two years he was here (the restricted tender pre-lockout year and then the lockout year 2010-2011). And then this year, the cap penalty. I got it, that sucks and that is hard.

But I also don't see development and I don't see discipline or smart decisions on the football field, which is where a guy like Mike Shanahan should be thinking to himself, hey... this is the easy part, I've got this. Clock management, stupid penalties, effort, and being outcoached are not excuses that we should be listening to three years into a program insallations. In fact, you shouldn't be "installing" anything at this point, your program should be in more of a "reactionary" mode.

Bottom line for me, I am happy with a lot of the moves made, and I understand the ones that weren't. But I am not happy with the football side of things in terms of what's gone on during actual games. To me, that leaves a lot to be desired and I am not confident Shanahan is the guy for the job and I am also not confident that Shanahan thinks he is the guy for the job anymore.

I agree with you. What's funny is that (and I think I'm in the minority on this) I'm more impressed with Shanahan the executive than I am with Shanahan the coach. His talent evaluation has been really good and his long-term vision is setting the table for success for a long time. The lack of discipline and the appeared lack of emotion during some of these games has been shocking to me. That's not what I expected.

[DC9]

I agree with you. What's funny is that (and I think I'm in the minority on this) I'm more impressed with Shanahan the executive than I am with Shanahan the coach. His talent evaluation has been really good and his long-term vision is setting the table for success for a long time. The lack of discipline and the appeared lack of emotion during some of these games has been shocking to me. That's not what I expected.

Nope. I am with you. I think he'd be a decent GM at this point, lol.

But, and this is my opinion/theory, I think he's playing GM and on the sideline decision maker, and letting Kyle play head coach. Just a theory, I have no proof of this... but I think that this alone is one of the bigger problems with his approach. That would explain a lot of the penalties and clock management issues (which are typical of young coaches, even though as a sideline guy you should be on top of this). But, I remember in 2010 and 2011, being at the games, I could tell which drives Mike was calling plays and which drives Kyle was calling plays... and the Mike drives moved down the field better, but the Kyle drives were more plentiful.

So, even though I think it's just subterfuge to get a new deal for Kyle, if he were to go to the Eagles, I think it would be a benefit to the organization because we could either get Mike to become more involved in the offense, or we could get a younger cat in here to call plays and do the gameplan who doesn't have the same last name. Thus, making him more accountable to the Head Coach.

[Coach Janky Spanky]

Wow. Everyone (at least from the 3 pages of this thread that I read) seems to have missed the point.

The Glazer comment wasn't about Snyder being pissed that we're 3-6!!! It was about Snyder being pissed that Shanahan said he's raising the white flag on the season, surrendering playoff hopes, and switching to evaluation. That's a business issue, not a football issue. When the head coach surrenders the season, people are going to be less inclined to go to games and less inclined to tune in.

I'm sure Snyder is unhappy with our record. I don't think he'll fire Shanahan this year or next. But that's a completely separate issue!!!!!!!!

[Thinking Skins]

Just kidding of course, but I'm about to add the word "Cynically" to the front of your ES name.

That's one of the few jokes about my name that I've found amusing.

[Thinking Skins]

What makes me say that W-L record is bad to use as the sole measuring stick for a rebuilding franchise? It's a simple concept, IMO; this team could have taken a bunch of measures to "win now" (going after the 29 year-old Vincent Jackson, the 30 year-old Nnamdi Asomugha, etc.) that probably would have resulted in this team having a better record right now, but would have hurt this team 3-4 years from now, either with ineffectiveness due to age or with cap hits due to needing to be released, when RG3, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Trent Williams, & Alfred Morris (among others) are in or approaching their primes. Shanahan purposefully brought in guys this offseason that will be peaking when RGIII is peaking. He is building a long-term roster around this QB, not independent of him.

You don't kno that it'd hurt this team just like you can't say that not doing those things would help (I kinda agree that those weren't the right moves, but who is to say that drafting more OL and say signing Victor Cruz wouldn't have helped us).

Gibbs 2.0 was an excellent coach, but he hitched his wagon to the wrong QB that never would have made this team a consistent contender. Shanahan (1) avoided the deathly mistake of investing long-term in the wrong QB - with McNabb he gave himself an out, Rex/Beck were never given anything more than a 1-2 year backup QB's contract, and he passed on Blaine Gabbert when given the opportunity - and (2) Shanahan made the bold move in order to get RGIII despite not being handed the cleanest opportunity to get him. Those two facts alone set this franchise up with the opportunity to have its most successful sustained runs to the playoffs since Gibbs 1.0 was here.

Maybe, but maybe not. QB is the most important position on the field, but when your GM is unable to find talent at other positions it means he's playing with a bunch of scrubs and that's not quite the setup for playoffs. Look at what Gibbs 2 did. He took us to the playoffs and handed a playoff team over to Snyder. That Snyder hired an inept coach in Zorn is his own fault, but at that time this franchise was set up for a successful future. And the problem I have with that last sentence is that (unlike Gibbs) Shanny may have lost the team, it seems like they're not playing for him and if you believe the podcast posted earlier, neither are his coaches. That's not a playoff environment.

This is the youngest roster this franchise has had since before Dan Snyder bought the team. It's littered with standout talent 25-and-under (RG3, TW71, Morris, Kerrigan, Orakpo, Garçon when healthy), and 25-and-under talent still developing (Hankerson, Riley, Paul, Helu, LeRibeus, Gettis, Jenkins, Paulsen, Robinson, and on down the list).

Youth is only the first part of it. We also need competition at positions. We don't need Hankerson/Robinson/etc knowing they'll make the team and figured as starters. I want to see our guys competing for starting spots. I want to hear about veterans losing their jobs to young guys. We don't see that unless (a) the veteran is injured and the young guy performs EXCEPTIONALLY (ala Alfred Morris and Fred Davis) or (b) the young guy is a first round draft pick (ala Orakpo, Williams, Kerrigan and RG3). Look at Fred Davis as a prime example. He wasn't given a chance til Cooley got hurt and the he becomes a franchise TE. Why wasn't he getting more opportunities before? Was it all part of Shanny's grand scheme to get RG3?

I find it sad that so many fans are willing to dump so many young players that show tangible promise on the field ALREADY, let alone throw away draft selections that they've never even see play only 3 months into their careers. This is the very definition of shortsighted.

I get what you're saying and though it doesn't directly apply to me, I'll comment that I find it sad that so many fans feel so attached to certain players on this team JUST BECAUSE they're on this team. If Hankerson was on the Dolphins people wouldn't know him from Waldo, but the fact that he's on the Skins people talk about hope and optimism and how he needs more chances. I say bring in (legit) competition. If he's meant to be, then he'll beat the guy out. If not, then he gets cut. But when we start the roster with 9 guys competing at WR, but none of them really can show that they're even legit NFL players, then there's something wrong with the guys we're bring in. Same goes for Safety where we had at least 6 guys at that position this summer. I don't believe that NOBODY was available at our price, I'd bet that if I looked at the cheap free agents brought in and the draft picks this year, there are probably quite a few that are playing on legit pass defenses. We shouldn't be married to a guy just because he's on our team. Otherwise how would we grow?

Now there are definitely things that Gibbs did better than Shanahan; Gibss was a far superior motivator. The team culture he built was
conducive to having every man fighting for each other for the team's best interest. Those teams felt like they were built on franchise pride as opposed to professional obligations, similar to how college programs feel. That allowed Gibbs to rattle off those 4 and 5-game season-ending winning streaks to make the playoffs. Gibbs maximized the talents of his entire team, not just one side of the ball.

But as good as Gibbs was, he would have needed a miracle to win Super Bowls with either Jason Campbell or Mark Brunell at QB. He would have needed his mind 20 years earlier, and we all know he wasn't the same coach in the 2000s that he was in the 1980s. Teams just don't win SBs without stud QBs anymore.

If you remember in 2005, we made the divisional round of the playoffs and were a few plays away from making the championship game. Saying that we couldn't have done it without a star QB is like saying that Baltimore won't make it (although they were a missed FG away). Even with all the love for RG3, we can easily say that he'll never be a legit threat for the SB if his only plays are screens and QB draws.

Is Shanahan perfect? No. Has he made mistakes? Absolutely. But even with those mistakes, he has this franchise on its way to having its first sustained success since Gibbs/Beathard ran this team in the 80s. Now Shanahan DOES need to make changes in order to keep progressing, particularly defensively, but he does have the long-term vision for this team that will allow it to be successful for years to come.

Based on what? First sustained success? We're 3-6 right now. I don't call that success. Until he (we) makes changes, I don't see success, and the change should start with Shanny.

It reminds of when Green Bay was 4-12 in the mid-2000s. Brett Favre stood up in a press conference at the end of that season and said "This is the most talented team that I've ever been on." Most people laughed at him. Fast-forward a couple of seasons and Green Bay was in the NFC Title Game getting knocked out in Overtime by the eventual SB champs. Another few seasons, and Green Bay had won their latest SB under the direction of Aaron Rodgers. Those SB and NFC-title teams were composed of many of the same players that were on the same 4-12 team. Sometimes, you've just got to give it time.

The Packers under Mike McCarthy were NEVER 4-12. His WORSE record with them was 6-10, but that was after he went 8-8 and 13-3 which bought him some leeway.

[pjfootballer]

I'm all for being patient........when I see progress. Unfortunately, I see us progressing in areas that are over-looked by some of you that are important aspects of the game. The amount of penalties, clock management, lack of discipline, team being flat when the coach called it a "must-win" game, etc. Those aspects of the game should be improving in year three regardless of talent level and they haven't.

I think this is where I'm at. I don't think firing Shanahan at this point is in the best interest of the franchise. I've been as patient as anyone the last 2.5 years, but there comes a time where Shanahan and the team will have to show real progress. They'll have to stop doing the stupid things they do week in and week out and start translating them to wins. A team is judge by wins. Not stats, not moral victories and not would, coulda, shoulda. I'm at the end of my rope with the losing. It's just wearing on me. I maybe could take losing if real progress was shown this year. We probably got 2, maybe 3 good games this year. I'm kind of where you are at KG.

[pjfootballer]

I'm a bit torn on Shanny right now. I agree that he had a monumental task to turn the roster over. He had next to nothing in the cupboard and an unfair FA class the first two years he was here (the restricted tender pre-lockout year and then the lockout year 2010-2011). And then this year, the cap penalty. I got it, that sucks and that is hard.

But I also don't see development and I don't see discipline or smart decisions on the football field, which is where a guy like Mike Shanahan should be thinking to himself, hey... this is the easy part, I've got this. Clock management, stupid penalties, effort, and being outcoached are not excuses that we should be listening to three years into a program insallations. In fact, you shouldn't be "installing" anything at this point, your program should be in more of a "reactionary" mode.

Bottom line for me, I am happy with a lot of the moves made, and I understand the ones that weren't. But I am not happy with the football side of things in terms of what's gone on during actual games. To me, that leaves a lot to be desired and I am not confident Shanahan is the guy for the job and I am also not confident that Shanahan thinks he is the guy for the job anymore.

Another post that I agree with.

[Thinking Skins]

Alternatively, Snyder could revert back to his form early on his career and simply fire Shanahan in mid-contract, but what does that accomplish? It won't improve the situation, and merely proves to the NFL that he is an impatient owner who pulls the trigger without thinking. And should Snyder actually find a good coach willing to come to Washington, and continue a rebuild under these kind of conditions -- Redskins fans will get to enjoy watching the team be done over to fit the new coaches philosophy, and also to deliberate on the eventual fate of the latest entrant in the coaching carousel.

The important thing to note is that if an owner and fan-base can't tolerate a rebuild taking longer than two years, and only want 'quick fixes' -- they are probably doomed to a parade of teams that are cobbled together to give the appearance of being competitve in the current season. And under that approach, eventually you run into a situation that resembles 2009, when the wheels start to fall off. Real progress is when you build a foundation of talent to support the stars that emerge on your team, and establish a tradition of continuity in managing a time-tested system, especially on offense.

Long quote, but I'll reply to this part.

First, many of Shanny's moves have been HATED here by fans, (running RG3 so much, installing a 3-4 defense, keeping Smith as special teams coordinator, hiring and keeping Haslett as DC, his draft decisions, not re-signing Carlos Rodgers, not benching D. Hall, ..., there's a pretty long list). So lets not act like he's been a saint of a head coach and what we're seeing is that we're right in many of these instances.

Second, the question is what do coaches consider a fair chance? If you look around the league you'll see that most coaches get three years to prove themselves and if they have a bad record in those first three years they're generally let go. Snyder has given Shanny that chance, so its fair game.

Add to that point that if a coach is that afraid of Snyder we don't want him here. We need a coach who isn't afraid to stand up to Snyder and say NO. Its not like we've got an Al Davis on our hands who's fired a coach who just took his team to the SB. In this league there will be candidates who are willing to come here for the mere reason that they want a head coaching job and there are only 32 of those. We are not in such a dire situation that we've got to settle for Shanny. Cause if that's the thinking then we're no better than we were when we settled for Zorn. What I want to do is have an INTERVIEW PROCESS and look at a number of candidates and have Snyder and Allen (or whoever is the GM) consider their PROs and CONs and say that "this guy just wowed me and I think he'll make a great coach!". I don't want another one of Snyder's man-crushes to come to life where its a guy he grew up idolizing and has a chance to hire. Those haven't worked. But people are out there. We couldn't get Spags in 2008, but he got fired anyway and his team sucked.

[Redskins4ever]

Snyder enabled this by giving Shanny full control over everything. It's Snyder's fault. Snyder MADE Shanny the boss. He handed him the keys to the front office and the back office.

Now, most of us on here wanted Snyder to have less control, but don't you need organizational leadership to accomplish this?

I could understand handing the keys to a seasoned GM who has proven his worth, but Shanny isn't a proven team builder.

This is why the formula the Redskins are using is wrong. Bruce Allen should be picking the draft picks, signing the key free agents, and making solid trades but he isn't. Shanahan is the one who has full control over the roster. I think if push came to shove, Bruce Allen would take personnel decisions away from Shanahan and do those duties himself like he should have been doing all along.

[KingGibbs]

ooooppppss. accidently quoted myself.

[RedskinParadigm]

You don't kno that it'd hurt this team just like you can't say that not doing those things would help (I kinda agree that those weren't the right moves, but who is to say that drafting more OL and say signing Victor Cruz wouldn't have helped us).

Well none of us know anything for sure about what would have made us better in the past or what will make us better in the future, but we have these discussions anyway. Vincent Jackson may be the next Jerry Rice or Terrell Owens churning out 1000-yard seasons at 34+, but the probability of that isn't very high.

Maybe, but maybe not. QB is the most important position on the field, but when your GM is unable to find talent at other positions it means he's playing with a bunch of scrubs and that's not quite the setup for playoffs. Look at what Gibbs 2 did. He took us to the playoffs and handed a playoff team over to Snyder. That Snyder hired an inept coach in Zorn is his own fault, but at that time this franchise was set up for a successful future. And the problem I have with that last sentence is that (unlike Gibbs) Shanny may have lost the team, it seems like they're not playing for him and if you believe the podcast posted earlier, neither are his coaches. That's not a playoff environment.

The point about talent is well-taken, but that only applies here if RG3 was devoid of surrounding talent. He's not.

As for Gibbs, he handed Snyder a playoff-ready team, but not one that was built for sustained success. The lynchpins of that team were Clinton Portis, Chris Samuels, and London Fletcher. Portis last about half of a season before hitting his wall, while Samuels lasted one season. That team was not built to have sustained success. It was built for an immediate run.

Youth is only the first part of it. We also need competition at positions. We don't need Hankerson/Robinson/etc knowing they'll make the team and figured as starters. I want to see our guys competing for starting spots. I want to hear about veterans losing their jobs to young guys. We don't see that unless (a) the veteran is injured and the young guy performs EXCEPTIONALLY (ala Alfred Morris and Fred Davis) or (b) the young guy is a first round draft pick (ala Orakpo, Williams, Kerrigan and RG3). Look at Fred Davis as a prime example. He wasn't given a chance til Cooley got hurt and the he becomes a franchise TE. Why wasn't he getting more opportunities before? Was it all part of Shanny's grand scheme to get RG3?

Competition is the one thing that Shanahan has brought to the on-field product. Robinson earned his spot on this team by beating out Anthony Armstrong (the team's #2 WR in 2010) and Terrence Austin (a former Shanahan draft pick). Leonard Hankerson worked his way up from not dressing to part-time player to rotational starter. He wasn't given anything. Shanahan has inserted youngsters over veterans based on merit, not injury (Lichtensteiger over Derrick Dockery, Perry Riley over Rocky McIntosh, Darrell Young over Mike Sellers, pre-injury Hankerson over Gaffney/Moss in 2011). I don't get your complaints on this one.

I get what you're saying and though it doesn't directly apply to me, I'll comment that I find it sad that so many fans feel so attached to certain players on this team JUST BECAUSE they're on this team. If Hankerson was on the Dolphins people wouldn't know him from Waldo, but the fact that he's on the Skins people talk about hope and optimism and how he needs more chances. I say bring in (legit) competition. If he's meant to be, then he'll beat the guy out. If not, then he gets cut. But when we start the roster with 9 guys competing at WR, but none of them really can show that they're even legit NFL players, then there's something wrong with the guys we're bring in. Same goes for Safety where we had at least 6 guys at that position this summer. I don't believe that NOBODY was available at our price, I'd bet that if I looked at the cheap free agents brought in and the draft picks this year, there are probably quite a few that are playing on legit pass defenses. We shouldn't be married to a guy just because he's on our team. Otherwise how would we grow?

I understand the complaints on this one, and this is where there have been mistakes. Clearly there were better options at safety and in the secondary. The WR complaint is bogus, though; the guys we have are plenty good enough to play in a top 10 offense (which they are), and that's without the #1 guy on the field. Two poor games does not etch their status in stone.

If you remember in 2005, we made the divisional round of the playoffs and were a few plays away from making the championship game. Saying that we couldn't have done it without a star QB is like saying that Baltimore won't make it (although they were a missed FG away). Even with all the love for RG3, we can easily say that he'll never be a legit threat for the SB if his only plays are screens and QB draws.

Careful with the "if only" game. Using that, I could easily say this team would be the division leader at the moment, if only for a few plays this season.

As for the QB draws and screens comment: we must be watching different offenses. Not sure where this idea is coming from, but the mischaracterization of this offense is nowhere close to being true.

Based on what? First sustained success? We're 3-6 right now. I don't call that success. Until he (we) makes changes, I don't see success, and the change should start with Shanny.

I didn't say we're successful at the moment, I said we're on the way. This is based on the composition of the young and talented roster we see. I would like to see in progress as the season continues, however.

The Packers under Mike McCarthy were NEVER 4-12. His WORSE record with them was 6-10, but that was after he went 8-8 and 13-3 which bought him some leeway.

I didn't say under Mike McCarthy, I said the GB Packers. It's the same idea as the Giants under Ernie Accorsi, who built the foundation for their two SB rosters, but didn't last long enough to see it come to fruition.

[DC9]

I understand the complaints on this one, and this is where there have been mistakes. Clearly there were better options at safety and in the secondary. The WR complaint is bogus, though; the guys we have are plenty good enough to play in a top 10 offense (which they are), and that's without the #1 guy on the field. Two poor games does not etch their status in stone. .

I agree with you here. But this also gets back to the coaching of the team in regards to the WRs. You and I seem to be thinking along the same lines here.

Regarding Safety... I truly believe if we can get Tanard Jackson eligible and keep him clean (paging Phillip Daniles), then he will be a steal. Watching him live against the Colts during the preseason game, he just seemed to move so much faster as a player than the rest of the secondary. He was very instictive and noticably the best player in that secondary. He absolutely controlled the middle part of the field against a pretty good Quarterback in Andrew Luck, who decided to take his chances on the side of Madieu Williams... go figure.

I didn't say under Mike McCarthy, I said the GB Packers. It's the same idea as the Giants under Ernie Accorsi, who built the foundation for their two SB rosters, but didn't last long enough to see it come to fruition

And this, this seems to be a lot of the norm these days. And I would have no problem with a Jon Gruden, Bill O'Brien, James Franklin or whoever coming in here and winning a couple of Super Bowls and saying "Yeah, he did it with Shanahan's players." I'd say that all day long. It's rare to find a coach who can "pick out the ingredients and make the meal" as they all like to say. That marraige doesn't really work very often these days especially.

And to me, at this press conference that Shanny was at on Sunday, he truly seemed like he didn't have the answer. He seemed shocked that his team put up such a poo poo effort when he said it was a must win... he seemed like he didn't know what to say or do going forward. And for those who think this was some kind of a reverse psychology thing to use on the players... well, in my opinion, it should never come to that. Especially with such a young group. I can see you saying stuff like that with an older, more veteran group like the Giants or Ravens... but not a group where most of the roster is under 26 years old. That's where I get the opinion that he's losing touch.

[RedskinParadigm]

DC9, I think we're on the same wavelength. I just hope our instincts about Shanahan losing touch with the players are wrong. I really hope this team comes out of the bye with a vengeance.

[Oldfan]

...Just give this coaching staff some time to continue to build through the draft, pick up some free agents, and keep building.. it will get to where we want to go. Blowing up everything and expecting different results is what we've done that the last 20 years, what makes you think that will work this time?

Our problem in the past has not been dumping coaches. It has been hiring coaches who couldn't cut it.

Pat Bowlen gave Mike Shanahan full control of his football team in 1999. Then he backed every move Mike made. Bowlen's return on his 10-year investment was one playoff win. Mike was fired in 2008.

Given full control here, the progress has been disappointing. Why are you so confident that our patience will be rewarded this time?

I didn't want to hire Mike Shanahan, and I'm not in favor of firing him now, but please don't preach patience to me.

[NLC1054]

Youth is only the first part of it. We also need competition at positions. We don't need Hankerson/Robinson/etc knowing they'll make the team and figured as starters. I want to see our guys competing for starting spots. I want to hear about veterans losing their jobs to young guys. We don't see that unless (a) the veteran is injured and the young guy performs EXCEPTIONALLY (ala Alfred Morris and Fred Davis) or (b) the young guy is a first round draft pick (ala Orakpo, Williams, Kerrigan and RG3). Look at Fred Davis as a prime example. He wasn't given a chance til Cooley got hurt and the he becomes a franchise TE. Why wasn't he getting more opportunities before? Was it all part of Shanny's grand scheme to get RG3?

Hank and Josh Morgan competed all training camp for who would be the Z receiver opposite Garcon, and Aldrick and Hank have basically been competing for who would take the X spot in Garcon's absense. The reason Armstrong and Terrence Austin aren't here is because they were beat out in the competition by Dez and Aldrick Robinson. With Helu and Hightower hurting Royster was penciled in as the starter at running back, and then Alfred came on and they competed for that job.

And Fred didn't get his shot because Cooley played relatively well and well in the Shanny's first training camp. In 2011, Fred basically blew Cooley out of the water when he came back in much better shape and as a much better all around tight end.

The idea that people don't compete for jobs under Shanahan is bull.

Maybe, but maybe not. QB is the most important position on the field, but when your GM is unable to find talent at other positions it means he's playing with a bunch of scrubs and that's not quite the setup for playoffs. Look at what Gibbs 2 did. He took us to the playoffs and handed a playoff team over to Snyder. That Snyder hired an inept coach in Zorn is his own fault, but at that time this franchise was set up for a successful future. And the problem I have with that last sentence is that (unlike Gibbs) Shanny may have lost the team, it seems like they're not playing for him and if you believe the podcast posted earlier, neither are his coaches. That's not a playoff environment.

Gibbs left the team with an aging team where the inmates ran the asylum, in a situation where the players would pretty much only play for him---guys like Rocky McIntosh, Carlos Rodgers and LaRon Landry all more or less quit and wanted out of town once Gibbs left. Gibbs did not deliver unto Dan Snyder a playoff capable team; he handed him a team teetering on the ragged edge of irrelevancy that only needed the tiniest of shoves to fall off a ****ing cliff, and the age of the team and the injuries to key players destroyed the whole team over the course of two years. Pretending Gibbs left the Redskins with a team ready for a run is misguided, if not flat out wrong. Gibbs was a great man, but he was also a short-sighted man, a man who could motivate average players to do really good things, but who had lost the ability to develop really good talent to do great things. That we somehow made the playoffs is a testament to his ability to motivate, but the depths to which the team fell is also a testament to his lack of foresight and inability to build a team that could win now, and in the future.

Take off the burgundy colored glasses for a while and you're realize that while Gibbs was a great man, he left this organization just as it's foundation was cracking and about to come tumbling right the **** down.