Is it time to start evaluating the Scouting Dept? (what should we do going forward?)

[Enter Apotheosis]

Since Mike Shanahan's first draft in 2010, the Skins now have five starters out of their drafts. Belichik has added eight in the same period. Bear in mind that he presumably started with a weaker roster and higher value picks, so it should have been easy for Mike to add more starters than Belichik. (Source: Pro Football Reference)

If you'd look at the Patriots' drafting strategy the last few years, you'd quickly realize that your presumption is fallacious. They've had 10 picks in the first and second rounds alone since 2010 out of 29 total draft picks. The Redskins have had only 4 picks in the first two rounds over that same span out of 27 total draft picks.

The trades for McNabb and RGIII robbed us of two such picks but ultimately we could never have hoped to match the Patriots in that three year span because they were able to acquire additional high picks by trading back in the 2009 draft and attained a solid mid-first rounder in trading away Richard Seymour. Their average draft position has, as such, been substantially better than ours.

[Oldfan]

If you'd look at the Patriots' drafting strategy the last few years, you'd quickly realize that your presumption is fallacious. They've had 10 picks in the first and second rounds alone since 2010 out of 29 total draft picks. The Redskins have had only 4 picks in the first two rounds over that same span out of 27 total draft picks.

The trades for McNabb and RGIII robbed us of two such picks but ultimately we could never have hoped to match the Patriots in that three year span because they were able to acquire additional high picks by trading back in the 2009 draft and attained a solid mid-first rounder in trading away Richard Seymour. Their average draft position has, as such, been substantially better than ours.

You misunderstood my presumption.

Each team was, by rule, allowed seven draft picks and the Patriots' picks were lower. That's the presumption.

The draft results of each team are what we are comparing, so it wouldn't make sense to toss out the draft moves.

Both coaches had assets to trade for picks. Belichik got good value for Seymour while Mike got next to nothing for his -- Carter, Haynesworth, one of the two TEs (Cooley, most likely).

[Wyvern]

I think our scouting and talent acquisition groups need more scrutiny -- they've been fixtures for a long time, and a constant factor in the personnel that make it to the top of the Skins drafting list, under several coaches.

They might be gettting better, but frankly, their long-term track record isn't that great. Perhaps Snyder/Allen need to lure some talent in from Kevin Colbert's group (who heads up the Steeler's player aquisition efforts).

Also, we might want to look at how well Skins coaches are developing the rookies the Skins are bringing in.

[Gurgeh]

You misunderstood my presumption.

Each team was, by rule, allowed seven draft picks and the Patriots' picks were lower. That's the presumption.

The draft strategies of each team are what we are comparing, so it wouldn't make sense to toss out the draft moves.

Both coaches had assets to trade for picks. Belichik got good value for Seymour while Mike got next to nothing for his -- Carter, Haynesworth, one of the two TEs (Cooley, most likely).

I wouldn't call Haynesworth an asset. After his behaviour here, getting anything for him was a bonus, especially considering his total non-production after he left us. Cooley isn't / wasn't an "asset" either; no-one offered him the start he wanted after we released him; there was no queue of teams offering draft picks for his services beforehand. At this stage in his career he's a backup TE - until he proves otherwise.

I think EA's point is entirely valid: the Patriots had ten picks in the first two rounds, you'd expect them to find more starters.

[Oldfan]

I wouldn't call Haynesworth an asset. After his behaviour here, getting anything for him was a bonus, especially considering his total non-production after he left us. Cooley isn't / wasn't an "asset" either; no-one offered him the start he wanted after we released him; there was no queue of teams offering draft picks for his services beforehand. At this stage in his career he's a backup TE - until he proves otherwise.

I think EA's point is entirely valid: the Patriots had ten picks in the first two rounds, you'd expect them to find more starters.

Mike knew, or should have known, that Carter and Haynesworth did not fit the 34. Had they been traded in the offseason (2009), they had value. The same is true for Cooley. A fifth for Carter, a third for Cooley and a third for Haynesworth would have been reasonable at that time.

Belichik had ten picks? What you are arguing is that Mike should be given a pass because Belichik handled the draft better than he did.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Surprisingly, I agree with Oldfan. Mike Shanahan has badly mismanaged the draft (though he's better at picking players, at least at certain positions, and his mismanagement was no worse than that of Gibbs 2.0).

We should have gone into the 2010 draft up 3 picks, not down 2 picks. And this snowballed into other failures (being forced to trade down for Kerrigan instead of taking Quinn/Watt/, not getting value in which turned out to be a VERY strong 2nd and 3rd 2010 3rd round, etc)

Trading for McNabb was an understandable error. It was an error nonetheless. But it stings more because we should have compensated by getting value from our veteran players who no longer fit.l

[Oldfan]

...Trading for McNabb was an understandable error...

I authored two threads opposed to the McNabb trade predicting that (1) McNabb wouldn't be much of an upgrade over Campbell; and 2) McNabb was misfit for our scheme or any anyone else's scheme other than the one Reid created for him in Philadelphia. My opinions were unpopular. No matter how often the team is burned by them, Skins fans still love the big name acquisitions.

[maskedsuperstar]

I question this scouting department's ability to close in on true 3-4 personnel. Everyone on the front seven has played in the 4-3 in the NFL or in college. You look at team's like NE, Pitt, and Balt. who run the 3-4 and they are drafting players who played in the 3-4 in college. The Redskins aren't doing that.

See, this is where you are wrong. How many college teams play the 3-4 defense? All the teams you mentioned, drafted players that played the 4-3 in college. Carricker and Cofield played the 3-4 in college. Demarcus Ware? Played in the 4-3 defense at Troy.

[RandyHolt]

Trading for McNabb was not an understandable error, even to this day. The extension McNabb got after getting awkwardly benched for a 2 minute drill, and subsequently demolished by Philly on Monday night mere hours after announcing the extension, was almost unprecedented.

I always thought McNabb helped keep Skins Eagles games close over the years, with his predictable horrid throws into the dirt.

To the OP's point, I think the scouts are merely extensions of Mike. Mike tells them to go find run blocking guards, pass pro be damned, that's what they do. And we get reaches on LeRibs, and a revolving door of depth that is never good enough to push an OL to the sideline. Is it the scouts fault?

I too didn't like his trading down. Perhaps having a stud scout team working for the GM, not the coach, may help. But having a ****ty record leads to good picks, but then parlaying those good picks because you needed to add picks (lost to Nubb and Brown for instance), leads to mediocrity all things equal. He wanted quantity over quality.

He needed to draft a RT, and he didn't. I call bunk if there was no RT available in the 3rd round that can run and pass block. I still don't like the Cousins pick, and then waste a spot on Rex, to compound issue. Maybe he wouldn't need a 3rd string QB if he got an RT/OG that can pass block.

I wonder how much of our scouts time and efforts are focused on projecting mobile OL, and 4-3 guys converted to 3-4 guys.

[authentic]

I think part of it is that some talent needs to time develop. And not in the way that lost cases like Taylor Jacob and Malcom Kelly and Devin Thomas needed to develop (as in they would never develop ever and every other team except ours---read: Vinny---realied they wouldn't).

I mean, Jordy Nelson had three full years in the NFL before he finally exploded in 2011. Eric Decker is about to explode in his third year. Darrius Heyward-Bey was supposed to be the bust of all bust and he had a really solid season in 2011, Victor Cruz was on the bench all season before he came on in 2011. Pierre Garcon had a career year in 2011 with his mess of quarterbacks in year 4.

Look at the receivers taken in the first round of this year's draft. Justin Blackmon and Michael Floyd are both struggling to adapt; both of them are third on their teams depth chart, basically. A.J Jenkins hasn't even seen the field if I can recall. Who would've thought Kendall Wright would be the best looking rookie of the class?

I know I'm going on about receivers but I feel like that applies to other people. It's hard to know whether Richard Crawford is the guy we saw in preseason or not when he's not being put in a position to succeed, when he's even active, it's hard to judge Jarvis Jenkins coming off a knee injury. Perry and Ryan both are trending backwards, but their coach could barely coach defensive backs and now he's trying to coach them.....

Point taken on the lack of patience. But isn't it justified? With the teams that you mentioned, (Indy pre-2011, GB, NYG) they were afforded the luxury of "patience" because they were winning. They had the talent and depth that allowed those players to learn and develop. But then again, look at Indy this year, look at the Bucs this year, look at Seattle. Teams full of 1st and 2nd year players, yet are competing. So i'm not sure i'm buying the "these guys are young and they need time to develop", nah man. Not when there are players and teams around the league that come in and are able to make an immediate impact. But even then, i would be willing to be patient if i felt we were improving, but we're not. Some of it has to do with coaching, others have simply to do with not having the right players. This doesn't only go for drafted players (which have been OK), but FA aquisitions. Sure we're better than we were prior to Shanny (this was mentioned in the OP). However, i think we need to get better..

---------- Post added November-14th-2012 at 09:08 AM ----------

To the OP's point, I think the scouts are merely extensions of Mike. Mike tells them to go find run blocking guards, pass pro be damned, that's what they do. And we get reaches on LeRibs, and a revolving door of depth that is never good enough to push an OL to the sideline. Is it the scouts fault?

I too didn't like his trading down. Perhaps having a stud scout team working for the GM, not the coach, may help. But having a ****ty record leads to good picks, but then parlaying those good picks because you needed to add picks (lost to Nubb and Brown for instance), leads to mediocrity all things equal. He wanted quantity over quality.

.

bruh, right now i'm questioning the entire organizational structure. The way its currently constructed just isn't working IMO, and rarely ever works.

[Geneva]

I made a reference to questioning the scouting team awhile back, mostly out of curiousity as to why the receivers we end up with are average size at best. Tall shifty receivers are not easy to come by, but I can't remember the last time we had one.
Look around the league, and there are plenty of them on other teams, just not on the Redskins squad. Why? It would be nice to have at least 1 over 6'2 who can and is willing to go up after the ball at its highest point, rather than waitingh for the ball to drop into their hands; as if they could catch it to begin with might be a bigger question...

Very good question. As we traded most of our top draft picks for RG3 ( as I would have), free agency may be our best bet on a big tall WR. It will also be the only way to fix the DB problem at this time. As I said in the past I would sign TO to a one year vet min contract. Then see who is up for grabs in the off season. We could use TO now. I think most of our draft picks in the off season will go toward the O and D lines. We have a lot of good thing going for the team but we are still about two seasons away from our shot at the playoffs. After that we may be there every year for the next five or six years.

[Gurgeh]

Mike knew, or should have known, that Carter and Haynesworth did not fit the 34. Had they been traded in the offseason (2009), they had value. The same is true for Cooley. A fifth for Carter, a third for Cooley and a third for Haynesworth would have been reasonable at that time.

Belichik had ten picks? What you are arguing is that Mike should be given a pass because Belichik handled the draft better than he did.

OK, in turn:
1) Carter, yes, as he'd already shown he wasn't a fit in the 3-4. However as I recall when we released him it wasn't because we couldn't get picks for him, it was because he was a class guy and to give him a chance at finding a better spot for his talents. But yes, we could have got something for him a year earlier.
2) Haynesworth could have played 3-4 successfully, he was just too selfish to do it. Should Shanahan have realised that immediately? It would have been a tough decision to trade the supposed star player on defense before a snap had been played. It would be even toguher considering the monster contract Haynesworth had landed. What team would trade a high pick for that?
3) Trading Cooley in 2010 would have caused uproar. Hell, look at the meltdown here after he was released after two years of little production. Back then it wasn't as if we were blessed with so much receiving talent that Cooley was surplus to needs.

Belichik had those 10 picks in the first two rounds because of YEARS of smart drafting. How exactly would Shanahan match that, given he had one year to catch up? You think he would get six first and second round picks for Carter, Haynesworth and Cooley? Do you think after either the 2008 or 2009 season there was a single player on the squad that another team would have given us a first round pick for?

[maskedsuperstar]

definitely...I think that is the most underrated part of our issues on the 3-4. I'd love for Baker to get more shots at nose. Cofield is out of position at an NFL Level NT position

No, he is not out of position. The problem lies with Orapko not playing. Teams key on Kerrigan. So, its easy to point fingers, when the team is 3-6. This defense had 40 plus sacks last year.

[authentic]

Very good question. As we traded most of our top draft picks for RG3 ( as I would have), free agency may be our best bet on a big tall WR. It will also be the only way to fix the DB problem at this time. As I said in the past I would sign TO to a one year vet min contract. Then see who is up for grabs in the off season. We could use TO now. I think most of our draft picks in the off season will go toward the O and D lines. We have a lot of good thing going for the team but we are still about two seasons away from our shot at the playoffs. After that we may be there every year for the next five or six years.

The problem with this is that FA aquisitions also fall in the lap of the scouting dept. Morgan and Garcon (minus the injury) were good pick ups in FA.. Hank is teetering on thin ice, and year 3 will likely be make it or break it for him, Robinson hasn't yet reached his potential - that most saw in TC. Moss is about done.. So we certainly need to see whats out there.

[pjfootballer]

see, thats my problem we seem to have nothing but "okay" players. Now, we must also keep in mind (especially regarding the defense) that they aren't always being put in the best position to succeed. But at the sametime, when you consider that year in and year out, we're often out matched and out muscled, can't tackle can't run.... it seems to me that the constant lack of playmaking talent is a reflection of whats going on upstairs.

I agree. We never seem to have any "league leaders" or game changing players. While Orakpo is our best pass rusher, he's no Jared Allen or Demarcus Ware. Guys that can "blow up" an offense. While Garcon is our best WR, he's no Megatron, Fitz or Roddy White. A guy that can impact the game, week in and week out.