Chalk Talk: Dissecting the Duck, Skins Tie Ins (GRANTLAND Article + Discussion)

[Major Harris]

Do you think this because of the style of offense or because of him.

Both. The idea of putting a defense under pressure by making them defend vertically and horizontally isn't as effective when linebackers go sideline to sideline like they do in the NFL. and I am very wary of college coaches with no NFL background making the jump....not sure why....

[KDawg]

Both. The idea of putting a defense under pressure by making them defend vertically and horizontally isn't as effective when linebackers go sideline to sideline like they do in the NFL.

I understand this point, but that's why a good mix of pass, run, play action and misdirections can keep a linebacker guessing, thus hampering their ability to go sideline to sideline. Now, when you play some of the better ones, you need to make sure you get a hat on them because they're going to be at the POA.

[Darth Tater]

I understand this point, but that's why a good mix of pass, run, play action and misdirections can keep a linebacker guessing, thus hampering their ability to go sideline to sideline. Now, when you play some of the better ones, you need to make sure you get a hat on them because they're going to be at the POA.

I don't think Kelly would import his offense wholesale. Difference is really that you don't play an weak sisters in the NFL. However, RG3's long run against Minnesota was instructive about what that kind of offense can do. The first hot read was kind of tailback draw after the defense had committed. Most offenses can't go hot with a draw that became the primary hot read just after the snap.

[KDawg]

I don't think Kelly would import his offense wholesale.

This is a point I made earlier in the thread. Agreed.

Difference is really that you don't play an weak sisters in the NFL. However, RG3's long run against Minnesota was instructive about what that kind of offense can do.

No, you don't play any weak linebackers, necessarily. But you can still manipulate them through setting things up. But the best are tough to trick. But even NFL linebackers fall for misdirection and play action from time to time

The first hot read was kind of tailback draw after the defense had committed. Most offenses can't go hot with a draw that became the primary hot read just after the snap.

The Duck is dictated on taking whats given. It's why I love the system. It can be adapted to NFL purposes and formations. You don't even need to stay in the "spread" with it. You can run different looks all day long. I think Kelly would do a good job at running a system based on personnel strengths and weaknesses while maintaining system integrity. Various tempos, taking whats given style.

[Darth Tater]

This is a point I made earlier in the thread. Agreed.

Got depressed after that Carolina game and didn't read much here over the last couple of weeks. Also, figured it was a good time to test if I needed someone to do an ES intervention program on me. Two weeks is the longest time I've gone without posting since 2004!

[darrelgreenie]

The idea of putting a defense under pressure by making them defend vertically and horizontally isn't as effective when linebackers go sideline to sideline like they do in the NFL.

I'm afraid I don't follow. I know we're talking in very generalized terms here but how is the design of offense 'making them defend vertically and horizontally' different from the design of other offenses?

..and I am very wary of college coaches with no NFL background making the jump....not sure why..

That's always a concern. Preferably he would cut his teeth as an OC first but his star is pretty shiny already when he's already been pinged by NFL teams.

[Major Harris]

I'm afraid I don't follow. I know we're talking in very generalized terms here but how is the design of offense 'making them defend vertically and horizontally' different from the design of other offenses?
.

Mostly in the alignment. Wider splits by the line. Receivers pushing the boundary. Lots of quick hitting passes on the perimeter, with a lateral running game that threatens the edge. Defenses have to defend horizontally more than normal.

[darrelgreenie]

Mostly in the alignment. Wider splits by the line. Receivers pushing the boundary. Lots of quick hitting passes on the perimeter, with a lateral running game that threatens the edge. Defenses have to defend horizontally more than normal.

But I don't think the main reason or design for the horizontal spread formations are to exploit a speed advantage over opposing LBs as you suggest here:

The idea of putting a defense under pressure by making them defend vertically and horizontally isn't as effective when linebackers go sideline to sideline like they do in the NFL

Here's Chip:

"We spread the defense so they will declare their defensive look for the offensive linemen,"

"If there are two high safeties [i.e., players responsible for deep pass defense], mathematically there can only be five defenders in the box. With one high safety, there can be six in the box. If there is no high safety, there can be seven in the box,"

I think you sell the running game short when you describe it a 'lateral' run game. I view the running game as diverse and mutlitfaceted attacking several different ways based on personnel and situation.

---------- Post added November-19th-2012 at 01:40 PM ----------

Another key aspect of Chip's offense is the tempo, and the tempo factor has already been proven effective in the NFL.

When you look at our current offense, heavily based on read option plays, and it success its hard to understand why the Ducks style of offense wouldn't be effective.

Now when it comes to the college coach moving the NFL, I agree its risky.

[Major Harris]

I would not describe our offense as "heavily based on read option" at all. It's a part but how much do we actually run it? We tried to go heavy with it one game and we got a glimpse of what can happen (cincy).

Chip Kelly is far the first to figure out how to move the opponents chess pieces.

[darrelgreenie]

I would not describe our offense as "heavily based on read option" at all. It's a part but how much do we actually run it? We tried to go heavy with it one game and we got a glimpse of what can happen (cincy).

Chip Kelly is far the first to figure out how to move the opponents chess pieces.

Okay, our offense is not heavily based on read option. My point that I think you'll accept is that we already use far more read option then most other offense in the NFL, do you agree? And in that aspect our offense already shares and proves that a key aspect of Chip's offense is already working in the NFL.

I'm not sure where I said that Chip was the first nor what Chip's chronology in the spread zone read offense coach continuim has on whether the offense wouldn't be successful in the NFL?

---------- Post added November-19th-2012 at 02:17 PM ----------

I'm just curious to see your view about why that style of offense wouldn't work, I'm not trying to be contentious just trying to see your side.

HTTR

[Major Harris]

Okay, our offense is not heavily based on read option. My point that I think you'll accept is that we already use far more read option then most other offense in the NFL, do you agree? And in that aspect our offense already shares and proves that a key aspect of Chip's offense is already working in the NFL.

I'm not sure where I said that Chip was the first nor what Chip's chronology in the spread zone read offense coach continuim has on whether the offense wouldn't be successful in the NFL?

---------- Post added November-19th-2012 at 02:17 PM ----------

I'm just curious to see your view about why that style of offense wouldn't work, I'm not trying to be contentious just trying to see your side.

HTTR

We do it with some success. But rg3 is an ungodly freakish talent, and even with that you can see the dangers with it. I just really think that the size and speed is too much. You don't get defensive ends chasing the stretch down from the backside in college a whole lot, but it happens a lot in the NFL.

I could be way off with this. I wouldn't mind seeing Kelly get a shot....I just don't Want it to be here

[darrelgreenie]

We do it with some success. But rg3 is an ungodly freakish talent, and even with that you can see the dangers with it. I just really think that the size and speed is too much. You don't get defensive ends chasing the stretch down from the backside in college a whole lot, but it happens a lot in the NFL.

I could be way off with this. I wouldn't mind seeing Kelly get a shot....I just don't Want it to be here

I have my misgivings about Kelly coming in as an HC also, specifically his lack of NFL experience. But if his style were ever gonna work then Griff would be the perfect QB and the ground work layed by Kyle would make a great base to start from. I actually don't think Kelly runs the best spread zone scheme in college. I think the zone read guys that are more pass focused would make for a better transition into the NFL. ('air raid' guys like Briles, Leach, Holgerson, Sumlin etc)

[darrelgreenie]

I love Greg Roman's offense for Kaepernick, that's what I wish our offense would look like.

[timitim]

well i am from the northwest and a huge pac12 fan so i have kept fairly close ties on Oregon the last 2 years. So if i might offer my opinion.

first of all i think there is a valid argument when comparing Kelly to Spurrier. Mind you I think Steve commanded a better team the Kelly does in UO. Steve won a national championship and produced a Heisman trophy winning quarterback.

Chip Kelly is a gambler. i understand that you have to be in the NFL but i think chip gambles for all the wrong reasons. He is a bit too arrogant as a gambler. In the pac12 some of his gambles pay off but on the hot seat and on the national stage he has yet to impress me.

I can't think of a back or a quarterback that struck me as a top notch NFL prospect. His teams are tailored to compete against other teams in the PAC 12.

One thing i will say in conclusion. I do think that Chip has a legitemit shot at a Heisman trophy quarterback in Mariota. As a true freshman he is already reminding me of a RG3 in his early years at Baylor.