MSN: Humanists call for African age of 'Enlightenment'

[Thiebear]

Somehow we have to acknowledge that not all beliefs are equal, that some beliefs are clearly wrong, harmful, etc.

Yep, and others do the same to you. rinse/repeat.
Sometimes there are alternate examples that don't require your belief to be better than others.

[alexey]

You aren't the first person to be totally sold on a religious movement so I will forgive your wide eyed belief even though it sickens me to read it. I wonder if it surprises you to hear that that you come off like a kid fresh out of Jesus camp explaining the wonder of his new belief and how things would be better if people just agreed with this way of thinking. ...

This does not surprise me because it is a very common way to slander people like me.


Scientists say that young earth creationists do not understand science. Young earth creationists say that scientists are dogmatically adhering to Darwinism. And the flat earth keeps going round and round.

There are people behind this latest movement and I don't make a habit of trusting people with religious ideas telling me they've got the answers. Especially when they gather up a nice echo chamber to sit and talk about those not in the room.

I am not sure how to respond to a claim that Humanism and Enlightenment are "latest movements".

I couldn't even imagine typing what you did with a straight face. Then again you do seem to have gone extremist yourself which would explain it. In your mind do you really think that there is a fundamental difference other than strategy in challenging a religion directly and simply dismantling it by other means? Religions have spread via the sword, the word, and the good deed through out history. This time however... this time is different. Right? Because you don't represent a religion! There is no church simply agree to believe this that and this and you're enlightened. Ta da!

In a world where every idea is a dogma, every idea is a dogma.

Belief systems always tend to be nicer before they get into power

USA is doing great with its Enlightenment "belief systems" in power. It would be doing even better if there were not as many evolution deniers and such.

Yes. I don't believe any of it.

- Believing in the existence of a god is inculcated from childhood...
- [questioning religion] can mean difficulty finding work, developing one's business, making friends and finding romantic relationships, [etc].
- The common perception is that if you do not believe in the existence of a god you must either be worshipping the devil or be an immoral person, not to be trusted.
- So often, people who break away from blind faith believe they are alone.
- Earth is round.

[Rabsuz]

Nothing will change until you change the culture, values and mindsets of these peoples. It's a slow and arduous process which will take longer than you can imagine. Education and a good enviorment do wonders, too bad most people in this world don't have access to either.

[alexey]

Yep, and others do the same to you. rinse/repeat.
Sometimes there are alternate examples that don't require your belief to be better than others.

I think that beliefs which oppose coalitions that focus on human cooperation and well-being are inferior and should be opposed strongly and openly.

[Destino]

This does not surprise me because it is a very common way to slander people like me.

Scientists say that young earth creationists do not understand science. Young earth creationists say that scientists are dogmatically adhering to Darwinism. And the flat earth keeps going round and round.

Apologetics already? That came sooner than expected. I'm not claiming the earth is flat, I'm claiming that people are dishonest. You're certain however that these people are genuine without having met them or knowing anything about them... All because they are pushing your belief system.

I am not sure how to respond to a claim that Humanism and Enlightenment are "latest movements".

So this movement is already dominant in the area? I was under the impression that it wasn't but was announcing itself and hoping to grow.

In a world where every idea is a dogma, every idea is a dogma.

Dip, dodge, dive, duck, and dodge. The five d's of dodgeball!

USA is doing great with its Enlightenment "belief systems" in power. It would be doing even better if there were not as many evolution deniers and such.

Thank goodness those atheist held a meeting and set all the believers straight in the USA. Do you even believe in religious freedom or do you simply tolerate it waiting for religions to, how did you put it, die naturally?

- Believing in the existence of a god is inculcated from childhood...
- [questioning religion] can mean difficulty finding work, developing one's business, making friends and finding romantic relationships, [etc].
- The common perception is that if you do not believe in the existence of a god you must either be worshipping the devil or be an immoral person, not to be trusted.
- So often, people who break away from blind faith believe they are alone.
- Earth is round.

is that straight from a online pamphlet or some memorized mantra? Creepy.

[Predicto]

I know that alexey has gotten under some people's skin in the past, but the extent to which people go to attack him sometimes surprises me.

This story wouldn't be a particularly controversial matter in the Tailgate if anyone but alexey had posted it.

[Morneblade]

I usually dont get involved in this subject, but I'll hop in here, probably for the only time. First, I'm a Atheist and not suprisingly I suppose have a background in Biology. But I really dont like Atheism being pandered like religion. It's a LACK of religion IMO and with some people pushing on everyone just like religions do and have done in the past, it's kinda pisses me off. Yeah, would I like people to be educated and understand how things really work, or how silly I feel a Supreme Being (that came from where exactly?) and created us in his image, yada yada, is not really realistic. But what I would really like is to have the right to not have religion shoved down my throat and for everyone to be able to practice their relgion, whatever it may be without having to worry about it. Science is not a religion, it's a search for answers. We do the best we can with the information we have at the present time, which may or may not change with new information. Treating it like every other religion cheapens it and to be quite honest, makes those that do look abit hypocritical IMO. If someone believes in God (by whatever name you call him/her), that should be their right be we should be ok with it. If you are looking for answers for questions you might have, maybe science can help, but maybe not, because science does not have answers for alot of questions right now. But it's trying to answer them with real information, as best it can. It's not perfect, makes mistakes (for any number of reasons) and most of the time, gets proven "false" eventually with new information that changes things. But with all that I think it's much better to honestly look at something, not have a answer for it or admit the answer we do have could change at any point if we find something new, than just go with a nice story that is warm and fuzzy, but doesnt really add up. But it's up to the individual, and we should all be ok with whatever someone believes in. As long as it's not being crammed down someones throat that doesn't want it.

[Destino]

I know that alexey has gotten under some people's skin in the past, but the extent to which people go to attack him sometimes surprises me.

This story wouldn't be a particularly controversial matter in the Tailgate if anyone but alexey had posted it.

Which one of my "attacks" surprised you? I'm still not sure why my simply not taking this group in Africa at face value upset him. I don't believe any group in Africa.

[Predicto]

Which one of my "attacks" surprised you? I'm still not sure why my simply not taking this group in Africa at face value upset him. I don't believe any group in Africa.

Well, it started with this: "You aren't the first person to be totally sold on a religious movement so I will forgive your wide eyed belief even though it sickens me to read it."

and this: "I couldn't even imagine typing what you did with a straight face. Then again you do seem to have gone extremist yourself which would explain it"

and this was kind of jarring too: "Belief systems always tend to be nicer before they get into power"

Basically, your assumption that these people must be secret Stalinists or something, and that alexey is a moron for not recognizing it.

[brandymac27]

I guess like any other subject, I don't understand why people can't leave others be when it comes to their personal beliefs about religion.

People have been fighting with each other over religion since the beginning of time. At what point do we say enough is enough, and accept that we are a dynamic group of people that have to share the world we live in and should be able to respect each other's beliefs whether we agree with them or not?

The arguing and fighting hasn't changed anything (for thousands of years now), so why not try something new, you know, like letting people believe whatever they want in peace?

[alexey]

This article talks about religious extremism being a problem in Africa and about Humanists speaking out from secular Enlightenment values.

As far as I know religious extremism is a real problem in Africa.

I am not endorsing these Humanists beyond simply agreeing with their statements on opposition to religious extremism and basing governments on secular Enlightenment values. Only this way can the people keep religious freedom.

[Destino]

Well, it started with this: "You aren't the first person to be totally sold on a religious movement so I will forgive your wide eyed belief even though it sickens me to read it."

and this: "I couldn't even imagine typing what you did with a straight face. Then again you do seem to have gone extremist yourself which would explain it"

the first comment was harsh but honest, the second was kind considering the naked intolerance that prompted it. I can word thing more carefully in the future.

and this was kind of jarring too: "Belief systems always tend to be nicer before they get into power"

Basically, your assumption that these people must be secret Stalinists or something, and that alexey is a moron for not recognizing it.

No one likes to hear that the group they favor is likely just as ruthless as they believe others to be. The only answer is religious freedom via inclusion and acceptance. Any group that gains a foothold that is defined by religion will IMO become decidedly less friendly to other religious beliefs. This is true in other areas as well of politics as well. I believe it to include any individual church within Christianity as well.

[megared]

Somehow we have to acknowledge that not all beliefs are equal, that some beliefs are clearly wrong, harmful, etc.

What would your hierarchy be? As disgusting as the practice of killing Albinos is, it doesn't and hasn't had nearly the destructive effect that Christian evangelists have...

Look at Uganda, where Christianity is practiced by over 85% of its population. Due to groups like the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), headed by Pat Robertson, religious right-wing agendas have been applied and ingrained in some of these countries. Uganda, in particular has a fiercely homophobic society which overshadows the real issues preventing its modernization.

[Destino]

I guess like any other subject, I don't understand why people can't leave others be when it comes to their personal beliefs about religion.

People have been fighting with each other over religion since the beginning of time. At what point do we say enough is enough, and accept that we are a dynamic group of people that have to share the world we live in and should be able to respect each other's beliefs whether we agree with them or not?

The arguing and fighting hasn't changed anything (for thousands of years now), so why not try something new, you know, like letting people believe whatever they want in peace?

I'm not sure the problem stems from religion. Ever noticed how in areas where brutality is accepted and life is indeed cheap... everything seems to demand the harshest of consequences? Life is entirely too cheap in Africa.

[Jumbo]

I paused until I read the whole thread.

I know that alexey has gotten under some people's skin in the past, but the extent to which people go to attack him sometimes surprises me.

This story wouldn't be a particularly controversial matter in the Tailgate if anyone but alexey had posted it.

On this matter Des, mi amigo, you are risking a sanction for your "it sickens me to read it" comment (I could let this first part go if that was all of it, but together it could be the typical week off in this particular context).

This other stuff, that P I think mentioned---"I couldn't even imagine typing what you did with a straight face. Then again you do seem to have gone extremist yourself which would explain it"---is not so much a problem. I do think (JMO) that it comes of as poor rebuttal, argumentatively (though I see alexy as sort of extremist-lite with a mushy inside), but it's no rule issue.

You are not the first Christian (specifically) poster to get rather bent about alexy (and this isn't your first time making such a comment in an exchange with him).

But this should not be any different than any other time two normally solid posters with strong but conflicting opinions get "spirited" on any other topic of serious meaning to them. The content here is not "spirited", it is (easily) rule-violating, given the context.

There are all kinds of things that can draw sanctions, and alexy (as he will tell you from his own adventures with me) and Des, and anyone else, is subject to them.

So I suggest that when someone is drawing someone else's ire, mainly because of the nature of the viewpoint, and not because the viewpoint was presented in a personalized insulting way, then remain within the rules and go after their ideas, not them.

You really have to know what you're doing when you go outside that boundary.

Sorry to interrupt the thread with this, but I think it's merited, and while I have pointed such things out before, I am not going to keep doing so.

Please resume what I think is a very good discussion, regardless of the aforementioned.

---------- Post added November-15th-2012 at 07:43 PM ----------

BTW, per the topic, I don't think it's the content of how Christianity is usually "preached" in these times that is the big problem here at all.