RG3 posts the highest QBTG ever.

[8181]

I will say this, based on the eye test, Robert Griffin III blows anyone we ever had out of the water. He reminds me very much of Donovan McNabb except with BETTER accuracy. If we can ever get RG3 paired up with a #1 receiver, we might see something amazing a la McNabb and Owens until the meltdown. And no I dont believe Garcon is that #1 receiver.

[Oldfan]

And most of the time Manning and Brady only need that extra half second - their ability to fit the ball into tight windows means that the receivers need to be "less" open, means that they only need that split second that moving in the pocket provides..

The claim you are making is that Manning and Brady, as individuals, not influenced by their support systems, have greater accuracy-velocity than their peers -- enabling them to "fit the ball into tight windows." What do you see in their skill sets that supports your claim?

[HeluCopter29]

I think when OldFan says that Chad Pennington is as good as Joe Montana, people miss a lot of what he's saying.

His point is that if you put Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees on Cleveland right now, you would see a massive drop in production.

Yeah, Tom Brady is having a better statical year then RG3 but that doesn't mean that Tom is necessarily a better player right now then he is because of the luxuries he has in NE that RG3 doesn't have.

Such items include:
An Offensive line that looks no different from an impenetrable fortress
A multitude of weapons on offense
And he's thrown the ball over 100 times more then Grif, giving him more chances to pile up yards and TD's.

I think his argument's simply that if RG3 was on Atlanta or Houston right now, he'd be doing more ridiculous things then he already is because he'd have more around him. Which is not unfathomable to think based off looking at his skill set compared to Matty Ice or Schaub. Similarly, Pennington might have panned out a lot better then he did had he found himself in San Fran during the early 80's.

It's a purely "what if" scenario, but don't scoff at it just because it doesn't fit "traditional" ways of rating players.

[Hitman21ST]

The claim you are making is that Manning and Brady, as individuals, not influenced by their support systems, have greater accuracy-velocity than their peers -- enabling them to "fit the ball into tight windows." What do you see in their skill sets that supports your claim?

That they are hitting receivers in stride despite excellent coverage (no, I'm not talking about the "jump ball" passes where the receiver out-muscles the defenders for the ball). When the defense plays tight coverage on the receivers, Manning and Brady can get the ball to the receivers in stride through the coverage.

[Oldfan]

Amen. Its why we included production in our college QB prospect evals from 2 years. Production (given sufficient surrounding talent) imho encompasses several factors like: consistency, IQ (or at least functional football IQ), decision making

I think your stat would be very useful.

Given sufficient surrounding talent? You are able to discern and grade the support systems? If you can do that, we can invent a metric that grades the total performance and then deducts the support system to accurately grade a QB.

[darrelgreenie]

But would you take Rodgers over RG3 right now? Absolutely. Brady has a lot of luxuries on NE that he wouldn't have in DC. Does that mean we wouldn't trade him for RG3 if age wasn't a factor? Not necessarily.

Easy, bud. I would take Griff over Rodgers.

I'm not sure how to respond nor what your last 2 sentences even mean.

[HeluCopter29]

Given sufficient surrounding talent? You are able to discern and grade the support systems? If you can do that, we can invent a metric that grades the total performance and then deducts the support system to accurately grade a QB.

Football IQ and decision making might be easier then you think to grade on a number scale objectively.

[Oldfan]

That they are hitting receivers in stride despite excellent coverage (no, I'm not talking about the "jump ball" passes where the receiver out-muscles the defenders for the ball). When the defense plays tight coverage on the receivers, Manning and Brady can get the ball to the receivers in stride through the coverage.

I seriosly doubt that you have counted the number of times the QBs of all 32 teams have hit receivers in tight coverages. So, you can't possibly know if Manning and Brady excel. However, when you have run he same play for years, it seems logical that it would happen more often. It's also more likely to occur when a QB passes mostly from the shotgun which doesn't require the QB to move his feet much. All QBs are more accurate from the shotgun.

So, even if the ability you claim exists, it's not likely to be caused solely by the QB's talent.

[darrelgreenie]

Given sufficient surrounding talent? You are able to discern and grade the support systems? If you can do that, we can invent a metric that grades the total performance and then deducts the support system to accurately grade a QB.

Grade them? nope. Have an overall feel based several different factors like pass protection, run blocking/running game productions, receiving talent (WRs, TEs, RBs), and given a large enough sample size that QBs own level of production with that cast? yes

But in Mahons metric the supporting cast wouldn't be an issue because his team of analysts would grade every play of the QB. Therefore the consistency would be measured by his grades from each game.

[Oldfan]

Football IQ and decision making might be easier then you think to grade on a number scale objectively.

How?

---------- Post added November-19th-2012 at 08:09 PM ----------

...But in Mahons metric the supporting cast wouldn't be an issue because his team of analysts would grade every play of the QB. Therefore the consistency would be measured by his grades from each game.

Theoretically possible, but that's a mammoth task requiring analysts who understand the schemes of 32 teams and were on the same page with their scoring.

[Hitman21ST]

I seriosly doubt that you have counted the number of times the QBs of all 32 teams have hit receivers in tight coverages. So, you can't possibly know if Manning and Brady excel. However, when you have run he same play for years, it seems logical that it would happen more often. It's also more likely to occur when a QB passes mostly from the shotgun which doesn't require the QB to move his feet much. All QBs are more accurate from the shotgun.

So, even if the ability you claim exists, it's not likely to be caused solely by the QB's talent.

You're right, I haven't. But I have seen enough of the QBs to know that Brady and Manning are better at fitting the ball into tight coverage than just about every other QB. Even if I didn't, just because other QBs can do something also, it doesn't take away the fact that Manning and Brady can do it also. You're speculating to try to discount my argument now. And by saying that they've run the same play for years means that it happens more often, now you're unfairly taking away from QBs who have been consistent for a while.

And yes, the ability to hit receivers in stride is based solely on the QB's talent. It has nothing to do with if he catches the ball, the blocking of the line, or the route running ability of the WR. That is strictly based on the ability of the QB.

[Oldfan]

You're right, I haven't. But I have seen enough of the QBs to know that Brady and Manning are better at fitting the ball into tight coverage than just about every other QB. Even if I didn't, just because other QBs can do something also, it doesn't take away the fact that Manning and Brady can do it also. You're speculating to try to discount my argument now. And by saying that they've run the same play for years means that it happens more often, now you're unfairly taking away from QBs who have been consistent for a while.

And yes, the ability to hit receivers in stride is based solely on the QB's talent. It has nothing to do with if he catches the ball, the blocking of the line, or the route running ability of the WR. That is strictly based on the ability of the QB.

There's nothing I can say if you don't understand that the problem is that the QB can't be accurately graded unless you can isolate his performance from his support. You will insist that you do understand that, but your arguments make it clear that you don't. For example, I pointed out that the shotgun scheme makes all QBs more accurate, but you insist that hitting the QB in tight windows is solely the result of the QB's talent.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I don't have a grade for "mobility." What are you looking at that you think overlaps?

Running threat.

I guess it seems like, by your rating system, QBs are getting double credit for mobility. Extending the play seems to be just a sub-category of running threat.

---------- Post added November-19th-2012 at 08:26 PM ----------

Amen. Its why we included production in our college QB prospect evals from 2 years. Production (given sufficient surrounding talent) imho encompasses several factors like: consistency, IQ (or at least functional football IQ), decision making

I think your stat would be very useful.

If you grade a player in aggregate over the course of a season, isn't consistency inherent in the grade?

[Oldfan]

Running threat.

I guess it seems like, by your rating system, QBs are getting double credit for mobility. Extending the play seems to be just a sub-category of running threat.

I see what you mean. You're right. I have to make some adjustments, but how much weight should be given each in what I'll call the arm/legs ratio?

[Hitman21ST]

There's nothing I can say if you don't understand that the problem is that the QB can't be accurately graded unless you can isolate his performance from his support. You will insist that you do understand that, but your arguments make it clear that you don't. For example, I pointed out that the shotgun scheme makes all QBs more accurate, but you insist that hitting the QB in tight windows is solely the result of the QB's talent.

See, now you're just nitpicking.

Neither Manning nor Brady run 100% of their passes from the shotgun. Were that so, then you would have a point. However, they run plays from under center also, and are just as accurate (yes, I've seen enough of their games to make that statement).

I'm not saying "accuracy" is completion percentage. It's a judgment of whether or not the QB was able to throw the ball to the receiver A) in stride and/or B) where the defender could not reach the ball. Which has nothing to do with whether they are in shotgun or not.

Either way, how do you give a grade for "short/medium/deep passing" then? Going by what you said about having to isolate his performance from his support, you wouldn't be able to give those a grade then.

---------- Post added November-19th-2012 at 08:30 PM ----------

I see what you mean. You're right. I have to make some adjustments, but how much weight should be given each in what I'll call the arm/legs ratio?

That's odd. That's almost exactly what I was saying about extending the play, yet you want to argue semantics with me.