RG3 posts the highest QBTG ever.

[Oldfan]

...Because he states it's a rating of talent, which it is not... talent includes mental (among others), which he admits is not part of his equation therefore it's not a total measure of talent

As long as everyone understands that it not a total measure, what's the problem?

The conventional methods for grading QBs are completely bogus. Yet, you are not pissed off about them. In fact, you are using those methods to hype your favorites QBs. As for the mental aspects, you want to claim that your favorite QBs have extraordinary mental prowess even though you cannot possibly see or grade their value.

If you can explain how you grade the mental side of playing QB from your perspective as a fan. I'll adopt it, if it makes sense. So, describe your method -- please.

[KDawg]

Oldfan's bottom line:

Tom Brady is overrated. The only reason Tom Brady has ever been anything is because Bill Belichick is the greatest coach in the history of the NFL, who perfectly crafted a system around Brady that mask all his flaws.

He's saying, in the context of the thread, that Brady is overrated because he's receiving too much credit for the team's success, and too many people detract from the other players and give Brady the credit. I thoroughly agree. Saying he's a grade A passer but being overrated may look odd in a nutshell, but it's really not. It's a concession that Brady, despite the fact that physically he's not a specimen, is an outstanding passer. But it's also saying that the credit he receives for the teams success is a bit overboard. There is a myriad of reasons the Patriots were successful. Brady's skill is one of them. Belichick's scheme and putting his players in a position to succeed is another. Brady's supporting cast, despite being "weak" (in many people's opinions) in some of the skill positions was strong in many other places, including virtually the entire defense. He had support systems in place that helped him succeed. Saying any single player won a Super Bowl in and of themselves is a dead giveaway of a single player being overrated, or to put it in another term, being given too much credit. I would think that Brady would concede that as well. Without teammates and coaches, Brady can't win. His guys put in the work and Brady's incredible skill combined with his coaches scheme won those Super Bowls. Not Brady alone.

Brady has been made into what he is not because he's any good, but because he lucked into getting drafted by Belichick. Without him he'd be nothing, and the same goes for just about any quarterback Oldfan doesn't hold in the highest regard.

That's not the point he made, brother. And you know how much I respect you and if not you should, and I think you're a smart dude. I think the overall negative feeling towards Oldfan is making you overlook the points being made. He's unorthodox and can certainly rub people in a poor way at times, but I don't think that's his goal. He's a smart guy and he thinks outside the box. I'm not sure that type of thinking should be frowned upon as much as it is. It's different, for sure.

Doesn't the fact that he has had that much success indicate he can make all of the throws in every situation as well as elude when he needs to? He's got 10+ years of greatness. That should indicate he absolutely is better at every throw than most of the other QBs in his self-proclaimed "physical trait" talent grading system. If he thinks his physical traits are not up to par, that's one thing, but to call him overrated and he's not great is another... yet he can't back that up...

I think he has, as I explained above. He's giving Brady a grade A as a pocket passer. But I believe, and he will correct me if I'm wrong, that he's saying giving Brady as much credit as he receives for those Super Bowls is a defining characteristic of overrated. I don't believe he's speaking of Brady's ability to run Belichick's offense. Just the fact that he's given the lion's share of the credit. But I could be wrong.

The whole basis of this arguement was based on physical abilities, but it's loosely called talent, which it is not... if being a great QB was strictly physical abilities, then Dan Kendra would be one of the greatest QBs ever... heck even Kyle Boller...

Stick with this line of thinking. That's how you should be talking about the system, from a physical skills perspective. I this this argument could have legs. Getting hung up on the Brady thing isn't advancing the conversation

I presented facts to back up my arguement and he did not.

I think you added some things that help say he, with the support of his teammates (and in turn, they with the support of Brady) along with his coaches have had a ton of success. And I think that theorhetically speaking you can make one hell of an argument for Brady's overall impact on the Patriots organization. But from the point of physical characteristics, I think he's also made his point loud and clear. Stick with the physical skills argument, I think you may have something there.

[Oldfan]

This is well said oldfan and I think this method should be taught to the NFL, It's much better than any I have heard from their analyst. I have said my entire life that there are somethings that stats just don't and can not show, and that robs many great and talented players from ever getting the respect and attention they deserve. This is really a great post to debate on.

There are many QB's as well as other players who didn't get that ring or name into the HOF because of the crew, coach, and system around them. And all of us Redskins fans love hearing that we not only have a franchise QB, but a very good one at that. I love the kid and hope he and the crew around him gets better each year. He already deserves a Lombardi, just for being that leader on and off the field, keeping his offense hopeful and wanting to win, as well as his play on the field.

Your post is much appreciated.

It is indeed a shame that some undeserving QBs are in the HoF while others, more deserving are not.

[Botched]

He's saying, in the context of the thread, that Brady is overrated because he's receiving too much credit for the team's success, and too many people detract from the other players and give Brady the credit. I thoroughly agree.

I agree

...and so does Matt Cassel.

[Oldfan]

...He's a smart guy and he thinks outside the box. I'm not sure that type of thinking should be frowned upon as much as it is. It's different, for sure.

It's nothing but an inherited, skeptical mind, KD. Most people hear conventional wisdom, accept it, and move on. I don't.

If I were a child when most people agreed the Earth was flat, on hearing that opinion, my natural reaction would have been: "Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I'll have to think about that."

[KDawg]

It's nothing but an inherited, skeptical mind, KD. Most people hear conventional wisdom, accept it, and move on. I don't.

If I were a child when most people agreed the Earth was flat, on hearing that opinion, my natural reaction would have been: "Well, maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I'll have to think about that."

All reasons why I've grown to appreciate what you offer. No matter what, whether I agree or don't agree, you force me to THINK and that makes me a better coach and a better football mind. I wish other people saw that.

[Oldfan]

All reasons why I've grown to appreciate what you offer. No matter what, whether I agree or don't agree, you force me to THINK and that makes me a better coach and a better football mind. I wish other people saw that.

Football is a great game to think about. I think it's more useful as a tool for young people than all the college courses on Critical Thinking put together.

[cphil006]

As long as everyone understands that it not a total measure, what's the problem?

The conventional methods for grading QBs are completely bogus. Yet, you are not pissed off about them. In fact, you are using those methods to hype your favorites QBs. As for the mental aspects, you want to claim that your favorite QBs have extraordinary mental prowess even though you cannot possibly see or grade their value.

If you can explain how you grade the mental side of playing QB from your perspective as a fan. I'll adopt it, if it makes sense. So, describe your method -- please.

I'll do it for Tom Brady because he's a great QB, one of the greatest of all time. When you have a level of success over the course of 10+ years that includes acheivments never before done (16-0) season and 50TDs, 5 Super Bowl appearances, winning 3, all the while the rest of his offense is sub-par with the exception of a past-prime Randy Moss who was still extremely good, one doesn't have to look far to see the mental superiority of a QB who can play in the clutch and win. This is also coming from people who know football far more than either one of us ever will, yet you call Tom Brady overrated?

If you care to ignore some of the greatest factual accomplishments, then watch him throw... He throws better than RG3 and makes tougher throws (all game) to a supporting cast of WRs that probably rival our lack-thereof in talent as well...

It's not talent, it's a couple of physical traits that you've taken the liberty to subjectively grade on your own (declaring it's the same way scouts do)... and grading RG3 as the same as Tom Brady on some of them even though your sample size for RG3 is far too small to make such a comparison. But, glad you had fun doing it because when I have time I would too, but that's not my point. You think Tom Brady is overrated? Seriously?

[cphil006]

duplicate post...

[Mahons21]

Football is a great game to think about. I think it's more useful as a tool for young people than all the college courses on Critical Thinking put together.

I couldn't agree more, football is an extremely complex system that few can understand. I hope one day I can reach something beyond a very basic understanding of the game.

In addition, I agree with KDawg's sentiments. Once upon a time you frustrated the beejesus out of me, I thought it was because you were stubborn, I later realized it was that you had actually made me view football or some specific topic of football in a different light than I had before. Something that I should desire, not something that should frustrate me. While arguing with you may be impossible, discussing football with you is one of the more enjoyable ways to pass time.

[cphil006]

This is well said oldfan and I think this method should be taught to the NFL, It's much better than any I have heard from their analyst. I have said my entire life that there are somethings that stats just don't and can not show, and that robs many great and talented players from ever getting the respect and attention they deserve. This is really a great post to debate on.

There are many QB's as well as other players who didn't get that ring or name into the HOF because of the crew, coach, and system around them. And all of us Redskins fans love hearing that we not only have a franchise QB, but a very good one at that. I love the kid and hope he and the crew around him gets better each year. He already deserves a Lombardi, just for being that leader on and off the field, keeping his offense hopeful and wanting to win, as well as his play on the field.

He keeps calling it "Talent Grade" which it is not... it's a grade of a few physical attributes to have a strong, accurate arm for deep, medium, short passes, plus foot speed... yet he claims that is the only intelligent way to grade their skill sets. If you want to intelligently grade a QB, success as a QB must be a factor.

Take Vernon Davis for example... is he the most talented TE ever? No, he's one of the most physicall gifted... but talented? He's extremely talented, but there are other TEs that are more talented, yet not quite as athletic. He might be most athletic TE ever if you want to grade his speed, strength, etc.

I think he's confused with making talent synonymous with athleticism.

[Oldfan]

I'll do it for Tom Brady because he's a great QB, one of the greatest of all time. When you have a level of success over the course of 10+ years that includes acheivments never before done (16-0) season and 50TDs, 5 Super Bowl appearances, winning 3, all the while the rest of his offense is sub-par with the exception of a past-prime Randy Moss who was still extremely good, one doesn't have to look far to see the mental superiority of a QB who can play in the clutch and win. This is also coming from people who know football far more than either one of us ever will, yet you call Tom Brady overrated?

If you care to ignore some of the greatest factual accomplishments, then watch him throw... He throws better than RG3 and makes tougher throws (all game) to a supporting cast of WRs that probably rival our lack-thereof in talent as well...

It's not talent, it's a couple of physical traits that you've taken the liberty to subjectively grade on your own (declaring it's the same way scouts do)... and grading RG3 as the same as Tom Brady on some of them even though your sample size for RG3 is far too small to make such a comparison. But, glad you had fun doing it because when I have time I would too, but that's not my point. You think Tom Brady is overrated? Seriously?

I realize that you think you have made a good argument for your position. As I read it, all you have done is to confirm that you overvalue the QB position. Most people do, including football coaches who should know better.

Brian Billick, blogging for the NFL, recently wrote that Eli Manning, having won two Super Bowls, should now be considered elite. He was making the same error you are making. He was giving the QB -- Eli -- far more credit than he deserves for a team accomplishment. Someone must have pointed out that his two Super Bowl requirement denied the "elite" label to a whole lot of outstanding QBs, including Peyton Manning, because, when I went back a couple of days later to read the article again, it had been edited. There was no mention of Eli in it.

So, your argument that "...people who know football far more than either one of us ever will..." agree with you falls on deaf ears. It's the experts like Brian Billick who start the bandwagon going. Then others, like you, jump on without really thinking.

[skinnyskins]

He keeps calling it "Talent Grade" which it is not... it's a grade of a few physical attributes to have a strong, accurate arm for deep, medium, short passes, plus foot speed... yet he claims that is the only intelligent way to grade their skill sets. If you want to intelligently grade a QB, success as a QB must be a factor.

Take Vernon Davis for example... is he the most talented TE ever? No, he's one of the most physicall gifted... but talented? He's extremely talented, but there are other TEs that are more talented, yet not quite as athletic. He might be most athletic TE ever if you want to grade his speed, strength, etc.

I think he's confused with making talent synonymous with athleticism.

This is 100% correct. The system presented in this thread is a dumbed down version of the combine that attaches arbitrary rankings to a narrow view of the overall talent of a player.

I believe we are running into problems because some people such as myself view talent as an indicator of the potential to exceed and be successful. The system here does not provide enough information to make that indication. Calling this a quarterback talent grade is misleading to some because it gives the impression that it provides a true scope of the talent needed to succeed.

[Mahons21]

Regarding Eli v Peyton:

Listening to my fantasy football podcast this week, some guest came on who has spoken with an NFL defensive coordinator and asked them about the two.

The DC said there's simply no comparison, Peyton is miles ahead of where Eli is, and ever will be.

[Oldfan]

I couldn't agree more, football is an extremely complex system that few can understand. I hope one day I can reach something beyond a very basic understanding of the game.

In addition, I agree with KDawg's sentiments. Once upon a time you frustrated the beejesus out of me, I thought it was because you were stubborn, I later realized it was that you had actually made me view football or some specific topic of football in a different light than I had before. Something that I should desire, not something that should frustrate me. While arguing with you may be impossible, discussing football with you is one of the more enjoyable ways to pass time.

That sentiment goes both ways. You young bucks are passing me by. I have to struggle to stay current on today's football jargon just to understand what the hell you're talking about. That's the definite plus that keeps me coming back.