The Jay Cutler argument for sticking with Mike Shanahan

[Skinsinparadise]

No, the Giants organization isn't even close to being #1. Their team, on its best day, matches up well for an upset of the Patriots and they had two of their best days in Super Bowls. If they regress to the mean, they won't win another Super Bowl for 40 years.

Been 8 years since the Patriots won a Superbowl and again they aren't really a balanced team personnel wise. So Belichick for a long time now is in the constant contender but not Superbowl winner status. I mention the Giants because for years now they have been able to mount both a team with a consistent pass rush (though not as much this year) and a good passing game -- in today's NFL that combo will keep you competitive, and is likely part of the reason why they are dangerous in the post season.

[Painkiller]

I'm not going to speculate on how much success would take to do it, but I'd be very happy to be proven wrong about Mike Shanahan. Meanwhile, my opinion is that we need to keep him or at least continuity with his scheme for Robert's sake.

Just for clarification, I also agree with you that we need to keep Mike for continuity's sake with regards to Robert, (for me also for other reasons) but with that said if Mike Shanahan puts us on the road to being "the number 1 team in the NFL, and holding that spot indefinately" even if he himself is not the head coach here when/if we achieve this...is he not also a huge part of what brought us there. Vindicating Snyder's judgement in hiring him? Mike doesn't have to be the coach at the time this happens, for him to have a large amount of the credit. We could see a situation where his successor may reap much of the rewards for his efforts in rebuilding this franchise. Would not be the first time. See Barry Switzer in Dallas.

[Hitman21ST]

Don't need both. Just keep continuity with the scheme. Does that make sense to you?

Complete. I could probably make an argument that to have the most continuity we should keep both, but that's a discussion for another day.

Personally, I think Kyle has had more to do with RG3's development than Mike - he's more hands-on with Griffin and can essentially focus on Griffin in practice (I think that he's the QB coach as well as the OC). Mike definitely has a hand in it, but he also has to watch over the defense and special teams. Kyle gets to have tunnel vision for the offense. Your thoughts?

[Oldfan]

Just for clarification, I also agree with you that we need to keep Mike for continuity's sake with regards to Robert, (for me also for other reasons) but with that said if Mike Shanahan puts us on the road to being "the number 1 team in the NFL, and holding that spot indefinately" even if he himself is not the head coach here when/if we achieve this...is he not also a huge part of what brought us there. Vindicating Snyder's judgement in hiring him? Mike doesn't have to be the coach at the time this happens, for him to have a large amount of the credit. We could see a situation where his successor may reap much of the rewards for his efforts in rebuilding this franchise. Would not be the first time. See Barry Switzer in Dallas.

If the scenario you describe happened, I would be tickled pink to admit I was wrong about them and applaud Dan and Mike for their achievements. But, I am proposing what I think should be the organization's decision going forward.

We make decisions based on probabilities. I find the scenario you describe highly unlikely as long as Dan Snyder owns the team because he hasn't shown himself capable of heading up that kind of organization. Given that situation, I'm willing to settle for a team that is fun to watch because of the talents of a good kid with a great talent.

[DogofWar1]

I think Shanahan probably has what it takes to get us to #1. Our offense has been powerful this year, and we've never had all the weapons out there at once, nor a starting RT, nor any good RBs besides Morris (Helu would make a solid difference). Considering that two years ago our offense was basically Moss, Armstrong, and some combination of Cooley and Davis, it's been hugely upgraded. Once everyone's back and healthy, with maybe a new RT, I expect us to put up points fast and hard.

The defense is trickier, but we've lost four starters and some useful contributors, and London, while he's still playing at a starter level, is declining. We'll have to do a minor overhaul on the back end, but I think once everyone's healthy we could be dangerous. Not elite, and probably not even top 10, but average, which, combined with the offense, should win us a lot of games.

The thing is, without a QB, you never really have a window to be the #1 team, except for maybe a year or two at most when everything else is clicking. With a QB, even if the defense is average, you've still got a chance to challenge for the top.

I think Shanahan understands that. He wants the QB, so he can get the window open for 10+ years, and then build around that QB. I think that's what he largely did with Elway, what he tried to do with Griese and Plummer (but they couldn't do it), and what he was trying to do with Cutler before getting canned. Now he's got Griffin, and is building the car around him.

I haven't seen enough to say conclusively that we'll have a team competing every year under Shanahan, but I haven't seen anything to say we can't either, and I'm leaning towards the former based on what he's done so far.

[Jumbo]

This sentence really speaks volumes about the tone of many discussions here. I think many would rather be right in their opinions, than give credit where it is due. When I criticize, NOTHING MAKES ME HAPPIER than to be proven wrong about some negative view or attitude I might have about the team or an individual.

If you come into one of these threads again to do a "state of the ES union in Painkiller's eyes", which is not the topic, you will get a minimum week off. It is OT and qualifies as rule 12 violation in the context.

]I make it a point to stay out of threads where some of you homers want to get together and agree that you are superior Redskins fans. Please return the favor and stay out of mine. Either that or try harder to keep your ego in check.

This is the kind of commentary that can get any poster a week off minimum, depending on context (rule 5). No member has any authority to tell any other member when they can or can't post, and doing so can be a violation of rule 18 (or 5 or 12, depending on context). But such a thing can be requested in any thread, and it a moderator can be asked to intervene.

I guess I struck a chord with that one. Check my posting history. I am no blind homer, it's just for me the team wining is more important than being correct. If that makes me a homer and a "superior Redskins fan" So be it. As for me, I'll post where I damn well please thank you.

Continuing a personalized spitfest without keeping close to the actual topic can also get a boot (and may still even when remaining on topic, depending).

Recently, in another OF thread, I stated was going to stop sorting such things out and just ban according to rule, no matter who or how many. I went against that here, but just know if anyone disappears for a week from one of these threads after some post they made, you should know why by now.

As always in every case, the fact that I like Painkiller just fine as a poster (and he's not at all one-dimensional) and also really like Oldfan, is beside the point.

I want no responses in the thread (see rule 18) or even any PMs on this matter.

Back to topic.

[Oldfan]

Complete. I could probably make an argument that to have the most continuity we should keep both, but that's a discussion for another day.

Personally, I think Kyle has had more to do with RG3's development than Mike - he's more hands-on with Griffin and can essentially focus on Griffin in practice (I think that he's the QB coach as well as the OC). Mike definitely has a hand in it, but he also has to watch over the defense and special teams. Kyle gets to have tunnel vision for the offense. Your thoughts?

Kyle is closer to Robert but Mike has the experience. It's hard to say without being on the inside.

[Painkiller]

You are right Jumbo, my apologies.

[Hitman21ST]

Kyle is closer to Robert but Mike has the experience. It's hard to say without being on the inside.

True. Oh to be a fly on the wall at Redskins park.

For us to get to the desired level of dominance, do you think our offensive personnel is good enough to hold down the fort so we can focus on improving the defense, or would you put equal importance on upgrading the offense also?

[Oldfan]

.. haven't seen enough to say conclusively that we'll have a team competing every year under Shanahan, but I haven't seen anything to say we can't either, and I'm leaning towards the former based on what he's done so far.

We see things differently. Mike inherited a veteran Elway is his role as head coach. He was given full control in 1999 and won one playoff game until fired in 2008. In his three years here, as I see it, there's been no indication of substantial progress. The book isn't closed on him, but Mike doesn't look capable of knocking Belichik off his perch -- and that's what I had hoped to see.

---------- Post added November-23rd-2012 at 07:41 PM ----------

True. Oh to be a fly on the wall at Redskins park.

For us to get to the desired level of dominance, do you think our offensive personnel is good enough to hold down the fort so we can focus on improving the defense, or would you put equal importance on upgrading the offense also?

I think you have to seize opportunities to improve your roster as they arise. Offense, defense, special teams specialists...it doesn't matter.

[Hitman21ST]

We see things differently. Mike inherited a veteran Elway is his role as head coach. He was given full control in 1999 and won one playoff game until fired in 2008. In his three years here, as I see it, there's been no indication of substantial progress. The book isn't closed on him, but Mike doesn't look capable of knocking Belichik off his perch -- and that's what I had hoped to see.

To be fair though, Mike came in to a bad situation. Especially at QB. Campbell, then traded for McNabb (which I think the majority of people thought would have turned out a little better than it did), then had Beck and Grossman (who he does get docked for). Personnel is his job, so he's responsible for the players he puts out there, especially on offense. But we've seen a vast improvement this year with RG3 over both of the last two years. The rest of this year and the next two (I'm assuming we give him until the end of his contract) will be the truer tells of his abilities.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Nice thread and I'm happy to see someone with the football knowledge that you have holding this opinion. Obviously, it's better for everyone if we improve into a contender under Shanahan. I hope we can win 3 or more games to close out the year so that there is clear progress in year 3 and virtually no decision for Snyder to make!

[Hitman21ST]

Nice thread and I'm happy to see someone with the football knowledge that you have holding this opinion. Obviously, it's better for everyone if we improve into a contender under Shanahan. I hope we can win 3 or more games to close out the year so that there is clear progress in year 3 and virtually no decision for Snyder to make!

Only 3? I'm hoping for 5.

[Oldfan]

To be fair though, Mike came in to a bad situation. Especially at QB. Campbell, then traded for McNabb (which I think the majority of people thought would have turned out a little better than it did), then had Beck and Grossman (who he does get docked for). Personnel is his job, so he's responsible for the players he puts out there, especially on offense. But we've seen a vast improvement this year with RG3 over both of the last two years. The rest of this year and the next two (I'm assuming we give him until the end of his contract) will be the truer tells of his abilities.

If not for Robert's sake, I would not want Mike to keep his job. I had hoped to see progress toward far better results than he gave Pat Bowlen for ten years of full control. It hasn't happened.

[Hitman21ST]

I think you have to seize opportunities to improve your roster as they arise. Offense, defense, special teams specialists...it doesn't matter.

OK, hypothetical time.

Two players are available when we pick in the second round. Grade A (for our system) Right Tackle, Grade A (for our system) Cornerback. If you're the GM, who are you picking?